Haskin: Remember ‘The Real Arrogate,’ Not His Runs At Del Mar

by | 11.12.2017 | 3:24pm
Arrogate "didn't have that fire that he usually has," trainer Bob Baffert said of the Classic's beaten favorite

Hall of Fame turfwriter Steve Haskin addressed the “bewildering” dichotomy of the big gray Arrogate in his blog at bloodhorse.com this week, coming to the conclusion that the Bob Baffert-trained colt's four-race run of breathtaking performances should be his legacy, rather than his terrible downfall in the latter half of 2017.

“We saw two distinctly different horses,” Haskin wrote, “and there is no doubt the one that tore through the Sport of Kings like the proverbial tornado from August, 2016 to March, 2017 was the real Arrogate, and somewhere hidden inside that powerful gray machine with the humongous stride lies the answers explaining why the horse we saw at Del Mar this year was an imposter.”

We may never know whether his decline was a result of a physical or mental issue, if he was knocked out from his massive performance in Dubai or if he truly hated the surface at Del Mar. Baffert himself wasn't able to give a real reason for Arrogate's last three starts, suggesting that the colt simply lost interest in racing.

“It will have to remain a mystery,” said Haskin. “We should remember the Arrogate who raised goose bumps on our arms and left us numb from the experience of watching him run.”

Read more at bloodhorse.com.

  • Flag Is Up

    Was it Del Mar or had he simply had enough? He had races at 5 different race tracks and never an issue, and he even won an Allowance race at Del Mar in 2016. So why is the track suddenly an issue in 2017? I think he was done!

    • Tango F

      the track was most certainly not the issue

    • Erin Casseday

      Not disagreeing, but his win at Del Mar was and allowance/optional claiming over two other opponents. And he didn’t win by very much, it wasn’t like he “blew away” lesser competition. That being said, since they retired him as planned and he will not race again (at a different track, say like GP in the Pegasus) we will never really know……..

      • Tango F

        we know ;-)

      • Baloo

        You and your ilk are the ones who “ will never really know”

        • Erin Casseday

          And you do? Please enlighten my “ilk”. I want actual hard proof or evidence. Not innuendos or unfounded accusations. Proof.

          • Baloo

            Proof; no explanation for Arrogate’s reversal of form; no diagnostic at a clinic
            You are such a fool

      • Minneola

        You are right. We may never know but, then, all it takes is for someone with direct evidence. That is what took down Lance Armstrong: a teammate who did provide that evidence as an eyewitness to having seen him take those PEDs. In Arrogate’s case, there will always be a little cloud hanging over his head because of the relatively few races that he ran in as well as having started much later than his contemporaries. Even at that time, there were rumors of problems with his feet. And, to end up losing the last three races… That doesn’t go away that easily when his stud fee is also set high for a first year stallion. And, no the track was not the issue but one of a few “rumors” that was sent out to provide some sort of answer.

  • Flag Is Up

    Question for the wise:
    Great horse or very nice horse that ran 4 great races?
    Personally, I’m now leaning the later.

  • Candy Chitty

    Sorry to see the Big Guyeeeeeeeeeeee go. He was thrilling while it lasted.

  • Lynn Errickson

    You are correct. We’ll never know what went on with him. But remember what thrills he gave us.

  • Judoon

    Too bad all three of his final races were at Del Mar. If he’d raced elsewhere at least once, it would have helped to answer this mystery. Based on his overall resume, I can’t rank him as a great horse. But I like him and wish he’d had a longer career to prove himself great (or not).

    • Erin Casseday

      There are many of us that have those exact sentiments.

      • Tango F

        Oh, you were all to ready to jump on the “once in a lifetime” bandwagon

      • SteveD

        I don’t believe it was the track. If Bob had been concerned about DM, he would have worked him there.
        I believe the most likely scenario is that he bounced hard from Dubai and never quite recovered.

        • Baloo

          “Bob” doesn’t tell you what he is thinking

    • Gary

      Thats the mystery here.. why force him to run there, he spoke about the horse weight at one time , he said arrow is feeling n training as good as ever n put his eeight back on, implying the horse lost weight… rest him n train up Pegasus then. I guess bayern won the classic and lost interest in racing also….woh!….This is truly sad, power corruption n media say people… that’s life ,

    • Minneola

      On the other hand, he did win at DM in 2016 and that the new track was installed the prior year. Don’t think climate change has affected San Diego to any extent, either. You are right, though, we will never know and, unfortunately, that will also be part of his resume for those considering breeding to him.

      • Tango F

        Not to mention that he managed to ship to Saratoga and Dubai and run just fine.

    • Baloo

      The track was not the issue for Arrogate

  • Tinky

    Someone should name a horse “elephantintheroom” after Steve’s take.

    While the dichotomy is likely to remain mystery, to ignore the fact that Arrogate’s crash coincided with unprecedented out-of-competition testing, is to ignore the proverbial pachyderm.

    • Vic

      Agreed

    • Vancouver Derek

      Ain’t that the truth Tinky!

    • gus stewart

      Yes mr haskin, im saying that if the testing allows for trainers to do whatever it takes to win shame on the industry not the trainer. No blame on p miller, but he ran a horse today at del mar his fav track, 6 to 1 went off 8 to 1, 2 yr old maiden fillies won by what 6 8 or ten lengths under a hold, sorry i think testing is back to normal. And whatever arrogate accomplished, i would love to think it was all on natural ability, which he has lots, but great horses overcome almost everything.

      • togahombre

        i held a nice ticket on that winner, that field was paper thin, the groupies were out for that one

        • gus stewart

          And if the testing is done the old way, differnt then the breeders cup, i will have to be aware of future trainers using the loophole that has added to racings decline. But also will have to wager accordingly in future, which makes it more costly for exotics

    • jacob.bratcher

      Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?

      • Tinky

        A straw man is a straw man, even dressed up in Latin.

        • jacob.bratcher

          …But what if it’s dressed in italics?

          • Evelyn Waugh

            Ha :)

      • Evelyn Waugh

        Hilarious reference to the post-hoc fallacy, which is as frequently encountered…as the affirming-the-consequent fallacy!

        Disclaimer: I am taking sides in this argument.

    • Minneola

      That the Haskins’ story did not mention, even once, the far more extensive testing that was done at DM for the BC races was not by accident. How could it ignored like that? It is very pertinent and, while I do not know whether it had an impact on Arrogate’s performance, I find it very disturbing that it looked as if that the discussion of the testing was purposefully avoided.

      • Tango F

        Arrogate; Drefong; Mor Spirit; Cupid …. lots of question marks

      • Ann715

        Haskins deleted all comments related to this a few minutes ago. Obviously doesn’t want to go there.

        • Tango F

          “You can’t handle the truth!”

        • Tinky

          Yes, he did delete all of the (many) comments that I catalyzed with an initial post like the one above.

          The decision was both sad and revealing.

          It was sad, because it was essentially dishonest. Here is how he explained the choice:

          This has gone on too far. This is not the place for unsubstantiated accusations, especially by only three or four people. Therefore I am deleting all comments pertaining to this particular subject people only can speculate about irresponsibly.

          Now, let’s take a look at these claims. First, what I have done, both here and on the Blood-Horse site, was to lay out some facts which could lead to an alternative explanation for Arrogate’s remarkable fall. I never stated that Baffert had necessarily used PEDs on the horse, but left it up to readers to draw their own conclusions.

          That is very different from making an accusation, and I have no doubt that Ray, to his credit, appreciates the distinction.

          Secondly, the alternative theory that I presented absolutely was substantiated by facts. Not substantiated in the sense that there was “proof”, but in that it was built on a foundation of facts.

          This was my response to Steve, which will probably also be deleted shortly:

          For future reference, Steve, highlighting facts, as I did, and offering readers an alternative to the other, dubious explanations that have been produced in an effort to explain Arrogate’s shocking decline, is not at all the same as making accusations. Nor did my alternative explanation lack substantiation.

          What you have done, effectively, is to censor a fact-based, alternative theory, as if the readers of your blog are unable to think critically and judge the various arguments for themselves.

          There were countless people around the world who speculated about the likes of Lance Armstrong before their hypotheses were proven to have been correct, and yet you, apparently, would have silenced them all, had you been in a position to have done so.

          I mentioned Lance Armstrong, yet could have included many other human and equine-related examples.

          When something extraordinary happens in athletic events, such as older players producing remarkable results well past their physical prime, or the defying of known physical parameters (as was the case with Armstrong), it is perfectly reasonable to speculate about the possible involvement of PEDs.

          In the case of Arrogate, my alternative hypothesis is based not only on the facts that I have previously laid out, but also on the dubious nature of the mainstream excuses that have been offered up.

          As I have asked previously on this forum, can anyone provide another example of a top-class horse that, after a handful of races, suddenly “didn’t want do it anymore”? If that were the explanation in this case, it would be an extreme anomaly, and not only in terms of statistics.

          Part of the very definition of a “top-class” horse is that it as capable of overcoming obstacles that ordinary horses would find insurmountable. That is why you typically find such horses – including Arrogate – overcoming bad racing luck (the DWC), race dynamics (Seattle Slew in the JCGC), less than ideal surfaces, etc.

          In other words, it seems exceedingly unlikely that Arrogate, having won seven of his first eight races, might have simply and suddenly soured on the game.

          The Del Mar excuse is even less compelling, given that he recorded a 114 Beyer in the PC. It also cannot possibly explain his two performances before and after that race.

          Adding to the questions is how his flummoxed his connections appeared to have been throughout the three races. They never offered a cogent explanation, and, in fact, appeared at times to be stonewalling.

          Why do I say that? Because there probably isn’t a single trainer in the country who is less likely to run a short horse than Baffert, yet he suggested that as having been the explanation for Arrogate’s run in the San Diego Hcp.

          An 85 Beyer figure (having hovered around 120) because of a lack of fitness? Ludicrous!

          The point of the details above is to underscore that my motivation for offering an alternative explanation was not any particular hatred or fixation on Baffert, but because I found the other explanations to be so dubious.

          Finally, let’s all be thankful that Ray is willing to allow us, the readers, of his blog, to think critically for ourselves. He does not censor substantial hypotheses or opinions, even if they may ruffle the feathers of important people in the industry, including his advertisers.

          It’s fine if you disagree with any of my posts, but please do not take his courage for granted!

          • Minneola

            Yes, even posts about whether the horse ran on Lasix or not were deleted. Incredible!! Very sensitive to any discussion about anything at all. I don’t know whether Haskins deleted those posts or whether someone else at Blood Horse dd so. Either way, it really demonstrated the length that the site will go to in order to shield anything that might cast some doubt about the integrity of this sport. It just brought down, in my eyes, the site’s credibility more than a notch. It is obvious that the omission of mentioning the more stringent testing, that was done at this year’s BC, was done on purpose.

          • Guamo

            Steve Haskin BH Staff Tinky • an hour ago

            You have way too much time on your
            hands. You apparently overlooked my comment that Ray’s blog is personal and he does not have to answer to anyone. That is not the case here. This website is run by the Blood-Horse and The Jockey Club. If you are not OK with this, please post all your comments on The Paulick Report. We are done!

          • Tinky

            To be fair, he and I have patched things up a bit on the BH blog.

            Not to suggest that I approve of the deletions, etc., but I did extend a hand, and he seems to have softened his stance somewhat.

          • gus stewart

            And there is the problem with blood horse, drf. If the racing biz was doing so well and you were discouraging negative comments i would get it. other sports address the issues and some get resolved, or a least the mainstream media gets the fan base invovled which drives ratings. The old school mentality of racing only talks in circles with all the yes people being employed by the sport. In no way does this help improve the sport, only continues its decline. We all talk about all opinions on pr report, whether popular unpopular fact based on not. So before you say take your thoughts to another place, maybe those owners who read bloodhorse should take their heads out the the sand, be reading pr report, and demand racings official to act and not bs talk and do nothing. Because without owners we would have no racing,, now im done.

          • Tango F

            they sure do circle the wagons like no other …

          • Minneola

            I always knew that BH was very “beholden” to everyone in the racing industry including the breeders, owners, trainers, and so forth. But, for Haskin to sully his reputation with that extremely biased story was beyond anything reasonable or logical. They should have just canned the whole thing rather than go into it with such a lopsided viewpoint. They do like “happy stories” don’t they?

          • Tango F

            Especially Haskin … another writer there shut down the comments when he went to bed, remember? I think Haskin likes to read the warm and fuzzy replies….

          • Guamo

            “But, for Haskin to sully his reputation with that extremely biased story was beyond anything reasonable or logical.” And then continue to ban and debate posters, which is presently still going on. Those who continue to stroke his article are still onboard.

          • Minneola

            Which is one reason that I rarely read Haskin. I’ve always wondered if he enjoyed listening to himself too much. If I want to read opinions, I can do that just scrolling through the comment section.

          • Guamo

            Exactly. Right now over there he is just another poster—with the power to ban and delete.

          • verite

            And stroke the topic and trainer of the topic …

          • Baloo

            He has always defended Baffert

          • Chrissy Gentry

            At least he admitted it. He isn’t free to say whatever he wants. There are other influences that he submits to. That is a clear rejection of anything contrary to their personal interests. Why Tinky would even want to return is beyond me, if, that is, what he wants to do.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            I will say that although Steve openly claims that he isn’t a free agent, he also appears to have his own biases, which is ok if that is what he wants his blog to be about.

            Some have called him out on his twist on things. It’s disappointing for us that expect more, but his blog isn’t the place for that. I’ve known that and have turned away on my own.

          • Always Curious

            There you have the answer. The Jockey Club owns the BH. I mean that literally. It changed hands years ago. The JC is the old establishment and likes to keep it this way. Look how long it took to start keeping records of breakdowns in order to achieve more equine safety. That went on for years & like pulling teeth.

          • chad mcrory

            Don’t leave the breeders out – ever.

          • Baloo

            And now, with his simple supporters counting their comments, who has nothing better to do? LOL!

          • Tango F

            Oh, I think it is obviously BH policy to protect and promote this trainer – the coverage they give hi is over the top, compared to the thousands of other trainers out there, and we cannot even mention “thyroxine” … talk about bias!

          • Chrissy Gentry

            I have noticed the same thing, such effort to sweep the bad and ugly under the rug. I don’t care for them.

            You can excuse the behavior at times because we’ve probably all given in too human selfish interest at one point or another, but when there is a pattern of behavior, it’s part of its nature and I don’t want to be a part of it.

          • Minneola

            It is “pattern” that is more indicative of what a person is or believes in. There may be an occasion or two when we stray from our “usual” but when it is repeated on a regular basis, it tells the whole story. Don’t know why Haskin couldn’t have slipped in one or two sentences about the new and extensive drug testing that was done at this year’s BC races. That might have given more credibility to Haskin’s story but to ignore it totally…. That spoke volumes.

          • Guamo

            “Ignore it totally”? Yep. And good luck to the posters who even try to mention that new and extensive drug testing could have even minutely affected the outcome of this year’s BC races.

          • Guamo

            Glad you are posting here. I rarely post on any forums but did during the BC regarding this very subject. I was polite yet had my own thoughts about the horse and his possible decline. I was immediately warned by Steve Haskins that I was out of line—I thought that strange because at that time there were over 900 posts and many people were saying things WAY worse than me. My comments included the OOC testing, which coincided with your comments. I was the only poster who was warned 4 times while others were outrageous. So glad you didn’t back down. His article was all fluff to me and he is getting plenty of attention because of it. Too bad because he avoided your “elephant in the room.” Still is. Banning the posters he did is ridiculous because they see things differently. He may have stars in his eyes and tried to put to pen a happy ending to Arrogate’s story, but he failed miserably. I like your latest post up top:

            “Someone should name a horse “elephantintheroom” after Steve’s take.

            While the dichotomy is likely to remain mystery, to ignore the fact that Arrogate’s crash coincided with unprecedented out-of-competition testing, is to ignore the proverbial pachyderm.”

          • Tinky

            Thanks very much.

            I hope that you will spend more time here. Not because we may have similar perspectives on this topic, but because there are some very insightful people who post regularly, and the features on the site are typically excellent.

          • Guamo

            I’m beginning to see that. The nonsense allowed/disallowed from Steve Haskins is unfair to say the least. Oh the power of the pen, and/or those that gave it to you. His article is vague and opens a lot of doors; the very doors he decided to shut on certain posters because they didn’t agree on flowers and butterflies and blue skies—and mysteries.

          • TimTamTed

            Hey guys,if you’re gonna criticize the man,at least get his name right.It’s Haskin,not Haskins.Thank you.

          • Minneola

            But, what I found so totally unprofessional was that, in that current story of Haskin’s, the main theme was trying to make sense of Arrogate’s “confusing” past performances. So, he looked into various factors: track surface, weather, etc. but he did leave out that one very critical other thing having to do with the new testing that was done for the BC races. This was no secret. It was widely reported as well as widely discussed. On what planet does he live on? Didn’t he think — the operative word here might be “think” — that the readers would notice that omission?

          • Tango F

            As we know, several of them do not think very clearly…

          • zafonic

            His head has been in the sand for years.

          • Minneola

            Oh and I’ve been thinking that maybe he took some blinders off some race horse and has been wearing them, himself.

          • zafonic

            Most of these writers love Baffert because he is press friendly. Bob loves the camera and the writers get something to write, even though it is just rigmarole. Pletcher and Asmussen are much less accommodating to the press, and therefore receive much less love. If you read in between the lines of certain Haskin articles about Pletcher, it is fairly obvious that Steve doesn’t like Todd, but he’ll never admit it.

          • Minneola

            I’ve also noticed that BH writes more stories about Baffert (or one of his horses) than any other. I wondered if there was also a bit of influence being tossed their way by the breeder. Could there be an effort to talk up this horse so that more will line up to breed their mares to him and at those stud fees? Obviously, I’m thinking out loud and really don’t have any evidence one way or the other.

          • zafonic

            IMO, there is an astounding pro-Baffert agenda amongst the writers on BH.

          • Guamo

            Mine too.

          • Baloo

            +1

          • verite

            that is an understatement!

          • Baloo

            One wet behind the ears writer seems to be especially smitten

          • Minneola

            But, it could also be that if it is a top-down type of management, there was a directive given to its writers.

          • Michael Castellano

            That might be a factor, but I think there are much bigger issues in play. Cycling was and is a minor sport. Which was nearly fatally damaged by the influence of blood doping, culminating in the downfall of their sport’s biggest celebrity, Lance Armstrong. Racing is in survival mode in some respects, and already on the decline. Picture a similar scandal now in racing involving the sport’s biggest names. They have been fortunate so far to avoid it. But chances are it will all come out one day. Media outside of the racing establishment loves scandals involving big named celebrities, and anything involving the industry’s biggest and only T.V. star recognized by the general public would be huge.

          • Minneola

            I have wondered, for some time, whether there have been many in the racing industry who have been protecting a couple of big name trainers because of the fear that it would expose the “shady” side of this sport. That would make front page news in the mainstream media and it might end up unraveling the entire sport. The other factor that some have seen to be a threat to racing is the probability that other professional sports will, in the not so distant future, also be offering the same kind of wagering that horse racing has enjoyed. If that happened, it might just send racing into a tailspin since there are so many more fans of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. Racing is very dependent on those that wager and if wagering from other sports come into being, it might mean the loss of the main financial support for racing.

          • Baloo

            Some of them are more than just targeting him for stories because he is accessible, I think. Baffert is a camera hound, for sure.

          • David Juffet

            I have no respect for Haskin’s opinions. He’s been burned out for years. Waste of breath.

          • Minneola

            I, rarely, read Haskin and it is for one primary reason: He seems to like to hear himself “talk” through the written word. But, this particular story seemed to provide another glimpse into someone who wants to dictate the comment section and, if someone disagrees with Haskin or makes a good counter-point that isn’t the narrative that Haskin appreciates, he deletes them. Kind of a mini-dictator. It also seems to demonstrate that he fears the opinions of others since it may (in his mind) undermine his own personal viewpoints.

          • Baloo

            Only those who deny the obvious about Arrogate are welcome

          • Always Curious

            My thoughts on Haskin’s article: he opened up a can of worms and did not approve of what came out. How great it would be if someone at least did a probing interview with B.B. (not a sound bite) Let him answer. We all know speculation is rampant, otherwise he would not have written the article.

          • Minneola

            I doubt that BB would agree to a probing interview. No doubt that he knew that there were a lot of people wondering what happened to Arrogate after the SD Hcp. Did BB come out with a “real” answer? No. Lots of head scratching. Then, Arrogate lost the PC. Again, nothing from BB. Then, Arrogate lost the BCC. Again, nothing from BB except for more head scratching. After each of these races, there have been plenty of people asking questions: Is it an injury? Any vet reports? Nothing. And, we know that BB knows what is being posted on these racing sites. If he isn’t doing the actual reading, some say that there are a couple of posters that are acting on BB’s behalf. Yet, still silence and head scratching….

          • Baloo

            Baffert forgot how to not spin years ago

          • Always Curious

            Tinky, I thought you were banned from the BH years ago. I was surprised to see you there at all. I will add that your posts have also improved over the years, with few personal arguments and factual analysis and easily understood.

          • togahombre

            if concluding arrogates failures were due to better ooc testing after considering most other very possible explanations, as a fair observer i would give it serious consideration, but there are so many other factors at work here that are completely being ignored, once you start with bafferts recent past the feeding frenzy begins, after which his critics don’t really want the truth, they just want the conclusion they had decided on before the race was even run, as a horseplayer i can honestly say his biggest failures that day were plain to see before hand, and i posted as much, mor spirt’s odds leading up to the race i thought was a betting coup, and i was waiting for a barrage of cancelled win tickets to run his odds up to where they should have been, keeping blood doping at the forefront serves a purpose, despite the fact there’s no hard evidence to prove it’s the explanation to what we see,

          • Tango F

            0 for 11

          • Baloo

            I would argue that his defenders do not want the truth

          • togahombre

            there’s only one version of the truth, and one thing i can guarantee, it wont be simultaneously acceptable for both the defenders or antagonists in these matters, one side or the other will have their version of “the fix was in”

          • Baloo

            So, since he hasn’t been caught yet, there is no “fix”?

          • togahombre

            maybe he was really born in kenya

          • Baloo

            There was no evidence about that stupidity. However, we have SEVERAL instances of extreme reversals of form on many Baffert horses. That is a weak attempt from you to make a false equivalency

          • togahombre

            what your attempting is a weak attempt at trying to get away with passing off your opinion as the truth, now go along and play in traffic

          • Baloo

            Not weak at all and you can see how you ( defending a guy would couldn’t account for the deaths of seven young horses ) are quite a minority.
            Zero for eleven; total reversals if form for SEVERAL of his stakes horses, over history ; poppy seed bagel defense; interfering with Shared Belief in two successive grade 1 races …
            Yes, FACTS are on our side.
            Now, go back to one of those pr outlets and fawn and froth over the man. Your protestations are laughed at here

          • togahombre

            the part you miss is that i’m not defending anyone in particular, all the facts you’ve assembled here do not prove a thing about the real reason for the horse in questions performance, it’s your opinion, which is the point i’m making, you don’t like baffert, you came to your conclusions before the race was even run, if he would’ve won by a pole it would have been supported by another of your facts, and any fair and reasonable person that is looking for an explanation to his race that doesn’t agree with you is delusional, it’s the old goosestep attitude just a little dressed up

          • Baloo

            You obviously ARE defending a person who admitted to cheating with thyroxine, whether or not the kangaroo court of the CHRB decided he was or wasn’T, the FACT remains that he administered that medicine to his entire barn in order to get an edge. If you think he simply “ stopped”, you are seriously delusional. His spectacular fail in the BC was proof of his methods to anyone with a brain or anyone who isn’t dedicated to supporting this man

          • togahombre

            you do that delusional jackboot better than most, now just go along and catch up with your friends

          • Erin Casseday

            So if you are claiming that the reason his horses ran so bad is because he couldn’t use his usual PEDs, then why did Stellar Wind (and others) run so badly? Does Sadler use PEDs too, and that was the only reason his horses were doing well before the OOCT? Just saying, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck? Right?

          • Minneola

            True, but, most fans do not want to hear anything negative about their sports heroes. However, those who consider themselves professional writers must report the “real” and not just participate in some bias writing. They lose credibility but, at the same time, it may harm the sport even more because it creates an environment of suspicion and rumors that can take on a life of its own.

          • Tango F

            not just Arrogate; Drefong, Cupid and Mor Spirit did not run back to their prior unreal form

          • chad mcrory

            I cannot run on sore feet either.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            The agenda over in Bloodhorse is so apparent. All you need to do is spend a little time there and you will see it. I also had seen awful fighting and comments there left undeleted, but something said, cordially, that apparently did not fit there view or agenda, deleted. I’ve seen things resembling bullying that was allowed, and I suspect it was because they didn’t care what the one being attacked said, not because it was bad, but it didn’t fit their agenda. I’ve even wondered if it was a moderator with a fake name doing the bullying because I was shocked that it would be allowed to continue.

            It makes us appreciate sites like the Paulick Report that isn’t afraid of controversy, and doesn’t appear to be ruled by sponsors.

            And funny thing is, even though those things are allowed here, I find the atmosphere quite cordial.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            Thinking about my comment on the atmosphere here, it probably says a lot about the people that are attracted here, mature individuals that can engage in critical thinking and controversy for the welfare of the thoroughbreds that race, sometimes to their own deaths, for our entertainment.

          • Tango F

            It does …. water seeks its own level, as I am fond of saying.

          • Minneola

            OMG!!! Critical thinking? Yes. That is what intelligent people do. They think. Evidently, some racing sites do not want that. They want everyone to believe in fairy tales, Easter Bunnies, and that all is wonderful in the land of racing.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            Drink the Kool-Aid, while the horses pay the price.

          • Tango F

            Ray is to be commended for his progressive attitude

          • Tango F

            Coldfacts, of all people, just went there and posted a similar inquery :

            “…I find it surprising that missing from the plausible list of speculation
            and opinions is the likely negative side effects resulting from the use
            of Performance Enhancing Drugs….”

          • Always Curious

            A friend of mine calls it the “Bland Horse” for these reasons. I love the magazine and buy the paper edition (more information & great pictures) but they stay away from anything too controversial. Mr. Haskin is a wonderful writer, especially on the historical stuff but controversial subjects, not so much.

          • idavis

            Well, I recall Rachel Alexandra ran lights out as a 3 year old, then returned as a 4 yr old, just a shadow of her former self. She was amazing, made history beating the boys 3 times, and her elders. Yet, as a 4 yr old, the brilliance was gone and Jess Jackson retired her, and the thought was that she was tired of racing, lost interest. So it’s not inconceivable that Arrogate did the same, tired of racing and perhaps the difficult come from behind win in the Dubai race, which had to take a lot out of him, explain Arrogate’s lackluster performance after Dubai.

          • Tinky

            Not a good analogy, Ida.

            RA raced almost as many times at two (six) as Arrogate won in his career (seven).

            Then, having won races in February, March and April of her three-year-old season, she embarked on a grueling, albeit historically unique and impressive Grade I win skein. Having won the KY Oaks by 20 lengths, she prevailed in the Preakness just 15 days later. Then, having again trounced females in the Mother Goose, she faced and beat the best of the 3yo males (Summer Bird) in the Haskell.

            Just one month later, she appeared in the paddock at Saratoga and was already gutted – before the race. I was there, and will never forget it. Noticeably light, her ribs were easy to discern, and she was far more wound up mentally than any trainer would like to see.

            That she was able to beat older males that day was to her great credit, but it was predictably and effectively the end of her career. It was shameful that her connections, and notably “Hall of Fame” trainer Steve Asmussen, chose to run her in the Woodward, given that she was obviously already well “over-the-top”.

            She didn’t lose interest after that race – she was cooked. In her final three races, she was not in peak form, but ran two game seconds and won the other by 10 lengths. Nothing like Arrogate’s non-performances in two of his final three starts.

            I am aware of no top-class analogue to Arrogate, and all of the available evidence, which I have gone over, suggests that he did not simply lose interest in racing.

          • Always Curious

            A repeat as t seems appropriate: when I asked Mr. Haskin if any other horse in the past preformed as brilliantly as Arrogate and then just stopped, he said no, he did not know of one.

          • Tinky

            And his knowledge of top horses ranges far further back than mine.

          • Always Curious

            I checked my exact Question: Did any other horse show the brilliance of Arrogate in a season and just stopped? He said “Not to this extent, I can’t think of any.” I thought with his long experience he might have a comparison. I am always curious.

          • idavis

            That is your opinion, and I respect it. It is very possible he had a health issue and the owners didn’t want it disclosed for fear of reducing his value at stud. Lots of possibilities as to why he trailed off so badly.

          • Baloo

            If he had health issues, then shame on them for running him without a diagnostic exam at a first rate clinic!!!

          • idavis

            Coupled with his grueling win in Dubai, and perhaps a nagging health issue that wasn’t made public, and the current Del Mar surface, as Mike Smith mentioned Arrogate didn’t seem to like, it is concievable all these factors contributed to his losses. Many Thoroughbreds come back from Dubai and never achieve much again. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt than crucify the humans involved.

          • Baloo

            If there were just one horse from that barn to reverse form, you would have a point. There are, instead, several, and you do not.

          • Tinky

            Ida, top-class horses that have raced a total of eight times don’t fall apart because of one big race and some travel. There is no precedent.

            And with respect, while I understand that you prefer to live in the land of milk and honey, where all Thoroughbreds are beautiful and trainers are hard-working and talented, Arrogate’s trainer has a long history which invites extra scrutiny.

          • idavis

            Not saying he is squeaky clean, and I don’t live in the land of milk and honey as I have owned Thoroughbreds and am a realist. However, we believe what we want to believe, and I have no concrete evidence to condemn or accuse. Sometimes things aren’t what they appear to be.

          • Beau Geste

            No one wants to hear that, idavis. You’re injecting logic into the discussion. There’s blood in the water and so much more fun to make accusations.

          • idavis

            Right on! So tired of ppl being tried in the court of public opinion. Whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty? Arrogate will be missed and remembered as one hell of a Champion.

          • Beau Geste

            Exactly . I’m choosing to believe what I saw was the real Arrogate.

          • idavis

            Definitely! He was a beast!

          • Baloo

            Whatever happened?
            Logic and deductive reasoning
            Try them sometime!

          • idavis

            What I stated is quite logical. Many horses return from Dubai and never perform at a high level again. Taking into consideration the othsr factors mentioned, and Mike Smith srzting that Arrogate clearly didn’t take to the surface, it’s concievable those factors had a definite impact on Arrogate’s lackluster performance in his last fee races. I prefer the benefit of thr doubt vs crucifying his trainer.

          • Baloo

            You prefer to remain obtuse
            Arrogate wasn’t the only horse of his to fail: he went 0 for 11 on big purse day. Other horses that ran incredibly over their previous PPs earlier in the year faultered …. wake up

          • idavis

            Sorry, but I don’t but into your propoganda.

          • Baloo

            Those are facts

      • verite

        I believe that Haskin was prompted to write something about Arrogate with the theme of “we’ll never know what happened, so let’s just remember his good races ” with the intent of perpetuating the myth that this horse was ” one of the greats”. I see his piece as propaganda; shameless in its bias.

    • Tango F

      Bwa ha ha ha! There was a meltdown
      Where is Colonel Jessup when you need him?!!! LOL!

    • Erin Casseday

      So, out of all of the OOC testing done last year prior to the BC, none of Baffert’s horses were tested, only other trainers? Yep, makes a lot of sense. You crack me up! LOL

      • Gate To Wire

        In 2016 there was very little OOCT for the Breeders Cup and it happened only just prior to the event.
        This year the OCCT was much more involved and started many months prior to the BC

        • Erin Casseday

          Actually, that is not true. OOCT happens every year, it is only because of what happened with Ron Ellis and Masochistic that it was made more public this year. Other difference is the BC did their own testing, rather than having the track officials. As to the time frame, they didn’t start until mid August, so how does that explain Arrogate’s poor performance in the he SD in July, and then a slightly better performance in August when Baffert would know his horses that were heading to the BC were going to be tested. If you go by Tinky’s theory those two performances should be the opposite.

          • Tango F

            Actually there was an entire ARTICLE describing that a higher percentage of horses would be and had been subjected to OOC testing. Surely you are a little but smarter than that, Erin: if you know your horse may be tested in August, there are things you better not administer for a July 22nd start ;-)

          • zafonic

            The BC OCC testing started in early August. The San Diego was in late July. Theoretically speaking, if a trainer was blood doping horses, he or she would have to be out of their mind to take the risk of getting caught. There is also a possibility that the nexus of new testing methods leaked and trainers knew earlier. The BCC used much more extensive testing in the search for drugs. Testing was done at IFHA labs. Last year, around 45% were tested less thoroughly, including every single one of Aidan O’Brien’s entrants. This year, no favoritism or lack thereof, and over 90% vigorously tested.

          • Erin Casseday

            Not disagreeing with what you stated here. My point was, if Tinky’s innuendos as to why Arrogate ran so poorly this year as opposed to last year, the results of the SD and the PC should be flip-flopped.

            What is interesting is that nobody here (those throwing around all the accusations and suggestions of cheating) have not once mentioned how awful Arrogate’s works were leading into the SD. And those works were at SA. Now PEDS or EPO may give a horse more stamina, but they don’t change the mechanics of how they run. His mechanics had changed. Headset. Stride. Lead changes. Considering that his works between the SD and the PC were only slightly better, I was surprised that he ran as well as he did, but then Mike also hustled him out of the gate faster and and better position early.

            So that brings us to the BC. His works were back on track and he was definitely looking like his old self. Mechanics back to what they had been. As to why he ran the way he did, unless they were to have tried to race him again at a different track we will never know for sure if it truly was just a dislike for the Del Mar. track. It also may have been helpful, knowing that he had not run well there before, for Baffert to have moved his horses there and worked them over the track, not just gallop. (I admit that I was surprised they didn’t open the track up sooner for training)

            As a side not, if one were to think about the people’s thoughts on this board, I guess it really wouldn’t matter if he ran again one more time (say at GP in the Pegasus) and won, because they would just say that Baffert was back in business as usual. ;)

          • Baloo

            No, Erin … July 22nd was TOO CLOSE in time to the possible August tests. Quit making things up.

          • Erin Casseday

            I am not making things up. I was pointing out the flaws in others thinking. If Baffert was really giving his horses the PEDs and EPO that all of you here claim that he does, then he would have had the time frame to give Arrogate those prior to the the SD so they would have been out of his system by the time the testing started in Aug. Hence, is performance in the SD should have been better than his performance in the PC.

            Not only that, as I stated in a previous post, PEDs and EPO may give a horse more stamina, but they don’t change a horses mechanics, and Arrogate’s were not the same when he started back to work after his trip to Dubai.

          • Baloo

            I suggest you do some research on EPO usage and side effects before you defend someone with whom you have had no contact. Arrogate grew and giant feet became more of a issue, but that alone would not excuse his lack of interest in trying, off and on since July.

          • Erin Casseday

            “Giant feet”? ROFLMAO!!!! You are truly hysterical! That is one of the funniest answers I have had the pleasure to read!!!😂

          • Baloo

            It was a typo, dingwing (corrected;thanks!)
            It is no shock that you are so easily amused …

          • Erin Casseday

            Simple strokes for us simple mountain folks! ;)

            As to the growing, that is something pretty normal for a horse to do, sometimes up until the age of 8 ( though most are totally mature by 5), so again, that would have nothing to do with the use of EPO. Growing pains actually explains the change in mechanics that we saw in his works after coming back from Dubai, and why they again changed as the summer progressed. Also why Baffert had a hard time keeping weight on him.

          • SteveD

            Amen on the mechanics Erin, (I saw exactly what you did), which is another reason I never suspected PEDs.

          • Erin Casseday

            Thanks.

          • Baloo

            Blind – July 22nd is close enough to August to not be dismissed in this fantasy “ mechanics”

          • Tango F

            July 22nd … VERY close to August. ;-)

          • Baloo

            No. BH and PR both ran articles about how the percentage of horses subjected to OOC testing increased dramatically this year, so this BC was one of the most fair BCs in a long time.

    • I have seen this very thing. Off the meds (wich would be The case for the desert race) you get a couple weeks befor the crash. Some after a few months of “therapy” do come back but often never to there formal form. I have seen it and i belive you have also, perhaps not recognized as sutch but IMO there is corilation in more than one instance. And thats not considering the over time tole it takes on the “systems” bend a peice of the best steel you can find .. it will eventualy break

    • Cynthia McGinnes

      Tinky,
      Will you never stop with your commentary that Arrogate had no natural talent, but owed all his great victories to drug assisted ability? The elephant in the room could just as easily be that his last three races were at Del Mar, a racetrack whose tight turns and short stretch do not fit with his size and conformation. You dis every great horse that Baffert trains. You are becoming a conspiracy theorist of the worst sort….. when do you think the black helicopters should start circling the Baffert barn?

      • larry

        Well put

      • Tinky

        Cynthia,

        Why is it that you are unable to debate, or criticize honestly?

        As I have pointed out previously, your claim is not only a straw man, but a remarkably dishonest one. If you don’t understand what I am saying, let me spell it out:

        I have never remotely suggested, let alone claimed, that Arrogate had “no natural talent”. It is an absurd claim on your part.

        If you want to be taken at all seriously, you must argue or criticize honestly.

        • Minneola

          When I see people defend, blindly, a horse, trainer, etc., it is because they do not want to know the truth. In the case of Arrogate, some went along with Baffert in thinking that the horse was the second coming of Secretariat. Now, they are being faced with real concerns that they were being duped and are lashing out at anyone that questions the horse’s abilities. Glad that you had the guts to make mention that the emperor was indeed not wearing any clothes. Not many would have the courage to do so.

          • Tinky

            Thank you. I appreciate the support.

          • Minneola

            You’ve always had mine and, I suspect, a lot of others. Haskin might have lashed out at you knowing that you have credibility and, therefore, a threat. Just guessing.

          • Tinky

            Of course the larger and more important story, about which someone could write a book, is the sharp contrast between the B-H party line and censorship, and the Paulick Report’s serious journalism and (largely) open comment forum, as it is a metaphor both for racing and broader society.

            The B-H represents the Old Guard, and, like all such powerful, albeit ossified institutions, circling the wagons while pretending that all is well, and silencing dissent, are built-in features.

            Ray, on the other hand, has deep, personal knowledge of the dangers of not facing up to one’s problems, and therefore recognizes the tremendous value in accepting the risks that go along with honest introspection (or critical analysis, from an industry standpoint). What is most impressive is that while he does risk losing advertising revenue as a result of his courageous reporting and admirable policies, his apparent, genuine desire to help catalyze change in the industry for which many of us have such deep passions, overrides at least some of the understandable concerns about his (small) business.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            Well put Tinky. That is how I see it. There are sacrifices you must be willing to take to help improve society. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, not all are willing to take that risk.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            I don’t know why I keep coming back to this today, but it’s probably because of things seen in the past and curious as to what went on.

            Visited the comments on Steve’s blog and am wondering why he would tell you to go, then make a comment wondering where you were. I’m assuming it is sarcasm. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t bother with people like that. They aren’t worth your time.

            Of course, I don’t know everything that was said as most was deleted, yet I found his comment unprofessional. Sounded like an invitation for others to join in on the sarcasm. Apparently, some fell for it.

            Not surprised though as I’ve seen things that disturbed me there and have lost respect for them.

          • Minneola

            Agree with you. I just took another look and saw the same Haskin post of “Where’s Tinky?” I was tempted to counter with a reply but, then, that little dictator would have simply deleted my post. I didn’t realize how unprofessional Haskin can be but, then, I have seen a little of some their other reporter’s writings and it seems to be a common. Maybe, it is directed by their superiors.

          • Baloo

            Yep & that is why he is leaving the commenting open longer than usual

        • Neigh Sayer

          You did not say Arrogate had no talent and made some good points about his trainer. I don’t like Baffert, never did and followed him from his entry in the thoroughbred business and never liked his practices and have many good reasons, some of which overlap with the conversation here.
          However, some things have nothing to do with other things and the waters are getting muddy when thanking someone for supporting you while saying, people defend a horse blindly, and disparage what the horse accomplished saying people were duped in thinking he was a great horse. The reality is regardless of what we think, the horse did amazing things. I’ve been doing this a very long time and my opinion of what I like to see in a horse for me was found in Arrogate. His style of running, his desire, length of stride and determination in lowering himself and fully extending himself was something I like to see and allowed him to do what he did. In other words he had all the physical attributes needed that others lack. He fell from grace for whatever reason and very well may be the reasons you state, but he could flat out run and proved that. My point is I was talking about these things with Baffert long ago including the 1992 BC at Gulfstream, when tighter testing was announced I said he would get nothing. But, I’m just saying what Arrogate did cannot be dismissed so easily by many, not you, that act as if it never happened.

          • Always Curious

            I think it is sad when any horse’s performance is questioned because of the possibility of PEDs. Until the industry can change this will continue.

          • Baloo

            That trainer has quite a history. Anyone with rational thoughts would be inquisitive about the correlation between Arrogate’s failures and the OOC testing

          • Minneola

            Exactly my thoughts. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. It should come of no surprise to anyone when suspicions linger around anything that this trainer touches. Some may think that is unfair but reputations are built on actions.

      • Minneola

        Ummmm, so how did Arrogate win on Del Mar’s track on 8/4/2016? What I saw in Tinky’s posts was that there was no discussion AT ALL in Haskin’s piece about the additional and more stringent testing that was held for the BC races. You flew to a conclusion and an assumption that is totally incorrect. Trying read next time before posting.

      • Tango F

        As soon as possible, Cynthia. From your farm in Maryland, it might be a little difficult for you to see some trees for all that forest, but maybe one day you’ll find one.

      • Lehane

        Blaming the track is no excuse for Arrogate’s mysterious decline in form.

        • Minneola

          No, but it might have been that there was a full moon the night before. ;-)

    • Neigh Sayer

      As a side note, it goes deeper than one man’s stance and opinion of what he doesn’t like or will allow on his blog for his reasons.
      On any article anywhere on any subject at BH if you use the word thyroxine the post will immediately go to moderation and will never be posted. It’s quite interesting but far more bizarre that the use of the name of that one drug would be banned from use. There does seem to be protection for a certain trainer as that drug is directly linked to him and was banned in Ca after the investigation to the sudden deaths.
      If anyone thinks this is not the case, just go to BH and type the word thyroxine and hit enter, it won’t post.

      • Tango F

        I mentioned that below. You cannot say “slaughter” there, either … so they just want to sweep everything uncomfortable under a rug.

      • Tinky

        Very interesting indeed!

      • togahombre

        i’ve got two replys from early last week still pending on bh, one is to something tinky posted, i couldn’t figure out what i said wrong, it was just a level headed fact based observation, after reading what you said here i went back and read them, in the one to tinky i mention thyroxine, but the other still has me baffled

        • Guamo

          You aren’t the only one with similar experiences. I’m not baffled anymore, though. Over there it’s BaffleAlert. One particular author is still arguing with posters over 48 hrs. later, still trying to baffle others since he did not succeed in written article.

          • togahombre

            the only words out of the ordinary in the second one were, suspension, Peta, and reference to a bagel positive

          • Minneola

            There are times that a post might be deleted if it was a reply to someone else whose post was deleted. Sometimes, they just seem to “sweep” in everyone else in that immediate conversation and delete them all.

        • Always Curious

          They cut the whole conversation when they determine it has gone off the rails in their standards. I have been deleted in that way. They also close the comments on an article.

          • Baloo

            But this one remained open for now FIVE days

      • DDAmasa

        I remember that. And that drug was not speculation but a documented fact.

        • Neigh Sayer

          And that is exactly how I presented it. People ask for facts and I gave the facts in very specific fashion including other things that transpired and sometimes it was removed.

      • Baloo

        You cannot say slaughter either – BH just sweeps anything uncomfortable under the rug

      • Kincsem

        I’m a little late to the party, but that’s an interesting point, Neigh Sayer. Not sure if any of ya’ll are on twitter, but Jill Baffert monitors what people say about Bob like a North Korean propaganda machine. Some people are just fortunate enough to be protected from having their dirty laundry aired.

        • Baloo

          An adept analogy! LOL!!!!

    • Tango F

      The fact that Baffert never sent Arrogate out for comprehensive diagnostics after his total unwillingness in the San Diego is the proof to me that Baffert KNEW exactly what the issue was …

    • DRS

      Your take is the tired one. None of our recent champions can live up to the lofty standards found in your imagination. Arrogate’s success is due to PEDs, Pharoah’s Triple Crown and Breeders Cup Classic win is really about his competition being historically slow, etc. It’s the same old story, same old song and dance. Anyone who dares call you out on your opinion is immediately labeled a “straw man” or declared guilty of an ad hominem attack. Steve summed it up perfectly on his blog. It never ceases to amaze me how you’re always willing to chime in on a horse’s performance after the race, yet you never offer to use your vast knowledge to pick a winner on this website beforehand. Doing so would add some much-needed value to your opinions.

      • Tinky

        The irony of you complaining about my pointing out straw men and ad hominem attacks, and then using the former yourself, is hock-deep.

        Instead of attempting to argue the many specific points that I have made about either Arrogate or AP, you instead make comments that are either silly (e.g. “None of our recent champions…”), or betray a complete misunderstanding of how racehorses are assessed.

        As for picking winners, that is not an aspect of the game that I have any interest in engaging in publicly.

  • Noval

    Arrogate? The horse who could barely stay stay sound without extraordinary vet intervention? That one? As a breeder, pass.

    • Erin Casseday

      And you have proof that he was unsound and had “extraordinary” vet intervention? If so, show us, all of us here on these boards. Name the vets and the “extraordinary” intervention they supplied.

      • Minneola

        We’re still waiting for his trainer to come out with some concrete vet reports to explain the sudden downward spiral of this horse. Ask Baffert, not a poster, for this information.

        • Erin Casseday

          If a person doesn’t have proof, then they should not be spouting off unfounded accusations. To all the posters tossing these unveiled innuendos, the rest of us want actual proof of illegal drugs or wrong doing.

          Again, if one is going to accuse, have some proof.

          • Minneola

            It sounds as if you are a Baffert apologist. None of us know what happened to Arrogate in his last three races but, since the trainer has remained too mum about this, it leads to a lot of speculation. You, on the other hand, prefer to ignore that the timing of those losses coincide with the stringent testing that was instituted by DM and the BC officials. Do you never use critical thinking skills? Don’t you even question why Haskin and BH avoided all mention of the testing in Haskin’s story? Guess the answer is… NO!

  • Tango F

    Haskin is find of sugar coating many things.

  • Michael Castellano

    Blaming Del Mar or mental issues for Arrogate’s poor performances are ridiculous. There are far too many “6 – 9 month wonders” in racing like him. It seems to follow a pattern with some trainers.

  • Meydan Rocks

    How fun it is to be in the pleb seats hurling rocks!
    I gotta find my way to the owner’s booth soon. LOL

  • Truth Speaker

    This revisionist history and thinking is the same thing Americans have done with secretariet. They choose to remember bits and pieces and never the whole.

    • C Hogan

      I remember Secretariet only competed for 13 months and lost four races.

      • Truth Speaker

        Right but when you mention the losses people bring up excuses for them. The same thing being done with this horse. People love to talk about the Belmont but avoid talking about onion. Just as they talk about Dubai but say Delmar is a “Tricky track” for Arrogate. IT’S B.S. people do it everyday in politics. When you can’t control the facts control the narrative.

        • Harry Plummer

          Good points Truth. I was at Saratoga when Onion won – I still remember a lady shouting out “Come on Onion you can beat him”.

        • Tom Davis

          In two of his losses in his 3yo year, there were medical problems. In the loss in the Wood, he was fighting an abscess. In one of his losses after the Triple Crown, he was so sick he was sweating profusely and
          had diarrhea while being led to the saddling area. They ran him anyway. Reasons, not excuses.

          • Truth Speaker

            Point is he ran in the race and lost it’s an L. LIVE WITH IT.

          • Tom Davis

            We’re in agreement. I’m just letting readers who aren’t familiar with Secretariat’s races know what happened.

          • Truth Speaker

            I don’t know what you’re saying it’s true or not but if that’s the case we have to start looking at that owner in a totally different way period. if she knowingly and willfully put a sick horse on the racetrack her credibility and horse management has taken A Direct hit. I know you guys heap a lot of prise on her and from what I have seen she was a wonderful lady but if she ran a sick horse minds must change.

          • Tom Davis

            I read it on a horse racing website sometime this year. Maybe Penny Chenery wasn’t aware of it. Perhaps Steve Haskin can confirm it.

          • Truth Speaker

            HOLD UP….you were just speaking in absolute. As if what you were saying was undebatable truth. You said the horse was sick and had a tooth issue now you’re moonwalking and questioning if the owner was aware of these issues because you saw it on a website ? Uh oh . So let’s just say she didn’t know. Do you think Lauren willing and knowingly ran a sick horse ?

          • DDAmasa

            Yes they ran a sick horse. This has been known for years. They thought he was good enough to overcome even that. Cheney has admitted several times over the years the mistakes they made.

          • Tom Davis

            I brought up the owner because you brought her up. I don’t know if she was aware. According the article I read, yes Lauren ran a sick horse. Can Steve Haskin confirm?

          • Always Curious

            Yes he did. He did not want to run Secretariat when he was defeated by Onion. Penny pressed on and he did it. She had financial concerns that she put first. He had a limited number of races before retired to stud (agreed to
            when he was syndicated.) She said this was a mistake and advised the new generation not to make this mistake. Truth Speaker you may want to do some more reading about Secretariat. Stay true to your name, look for the truth, then speak.

          • Truth Speaker

            Nah I’m good. Secretariat was never a factor here in Europe.I see that much hasn’t changed since his era in America. his owner put her pocket ahead of the horses well being and miss managed him.things could have gone horribly when they ran a sick horse.none the less just to wrap this up. A possibility is a loss. illness can be blamed or a ractrack can be blamed but the main factor is the miss management by the humans around the horses and the failure to listen to the horse.

          • Always Curious

            I agree it is a mess here and hope the Horse Racing Integrity Act passes. Uniform rules & testing protocols are the only way to clean it up IMO. I enjoy European races much more now because of their stiff medication rules & penalties, and the longevity of the horses racing careers.

          • Always Curious

            Your last sentence sums it all up!

          • Baloo

            TS seems to just have an agenda. Now, what other person in these threads starts with the word, “nah”?

          • Always Curious

            Penny has admitted she made poor choices and ran him when he should not. This is not new news. And I don’t call them excuses when a great horse does not perform. I look for answers to explain it. I think trainers do the same but classy ones don’t use it as an excuse.

      • larry

        How do we know Secretariat was not juiced? l bet a lot of horses in the sixes and seventies were juiced

    • Baloo

      Please. Do not compare Arrogate to Secretariat

  • brussellky

    Did ANYONE who knows what they are looking at watch his action on the Del Mar surface in the 3 races? He obviously hated it and it was most obvious in his best finish there. This has nothing to do with a supposed “Dubai bounce” or drugs.

    • togahombre

      in those 3 races he didn’t show much interest coming away from the gate, usually a pretty good indication that what follows isn’t going to be good

    • Gary

      It’s always drugs with these… he gave a horse illegal drugs in the spring year n got dq… Know one can train horses in that manner and win so many big races naturally. This is America. No Great Britain, Don’t be naive!… what did Bayern do after he won the classic…. nada! If the bc ran at Santa you would see how much drefong ,arrow, n met mile winner show up. Thats Baffert home of corruption.

    • Gary

      Look at Always dreaming, after the derby the chatter is pletcher horses need rest in between races. These people know whats going on in american racing.i guess AD lost interest in racing, also bayern,.. wake up people, dont forget what asmussen did to Nehro. If these animals could talk

      • Baloo

        Actually, Zayat INSISTED on keeping Nehro in training. I am not an Asmussen fan, but Blasi’s description of Zayat over his stubborn refusal to give Nehro time off is why Zayat yanked his horses out of that barn .

        • Minneola

          I did not know that about that owner but am not surprised. Did he ever pay his bookie for all that money that was owed? I find it odd that owners are not held more liable for the actions of their trainers. But, bully for Asmussen to have gotten rid of that owner. However, yes, there is always some other trainer that will do whatever the owners wants as long as there is plenty of money involved. Birds of a feather….

    • larry outlaw

      If he hated it , why keep running him there? Looks to me what ever baffert was doing with Arrogate wasn`t working no more he was finished. If horses could talk?

      • Erin Casseday

        Because the BC was being held there and they (Juddmonte) had committed to racing him in the Classic.

      • Minneola

        I’m guessing (and that is all most of us are doing) that the first loss was such a bad one that the following two were in hopes of reviving enthusiasm for the horse and for his breeding career. I also suspect that the trainer was trying his best to throw out there all sorts of speculation (track surface, hoof problems, weather) to derail other theories, none of which would have helped the horse.

        • Lehane

          Spot on.

  • McGov

    Part of the fun of horse racing for most is predicting what will happen. And then it happens.
    Some of us travel down paths riddled with cynicism afterwards. Some don’t. Some of us just take it for what it is and appreciate the net good that came of it.
    For me personally, I appreciate what other greats such as Cigar gave us….EVEN MORE today than ever…..after watching Arrogate come and go and with a flash of true brilliance. What AP recently gave us ( omg finally a TC winner!)…..and CC….the true journey of redemption…
    Tinky, IMO you are the smartest horse person that takes the time to routinely write on these things. Please consider your opinions and the incredibly subjective nature of this topic and this trainer before tar and feathering.
    There is NO EVIDENCE of this and we can talk about coincidences and all that….but in THIS WORLD….a FREE and FAIR world….we don’t do this or we sure as heck shouldn’t…..without clear evidence.

    • Tango F

      there is PLENTY of evidence, and in this world, poor horses shouldn’t be pushed beyond their young limits

      anyone who condones this type of manipulation is an enabler

    • Tom Davis

      That’s what Tinky was doing, talking about a coincidence. And what a coincidence!!! There was no accusation.

      • togahombre

        actually he described the other explanations as “dubious”, and, one particular response that was later deleted which i believe was completely out of line, he stated that it was his belief that haskins refusal to consider his explanation was due to his reluctance to lose access to baffert just as political journalists won’t touch certain stories for fear of the same

        • Tango F

          which is true; Haskin writes fluff pieces; warm, fuzzy and sugar-coated.

        • Baloo

          Which is true, BTW

          • togahombre

            of course it is, now go tuck bigfoot in and say goodnight

          • Baloo

            Go watch the doc on Rolling Stone magazine on Netflix; they discuss how journalists covering a certain genre ( in this case, the military in Afghanistan ) don’t ask the hard questions because they would NOT GET FURTHER ACCESS

          • togahombre

            stick to the point, throwing an accusation like that at a professional simply because they don’t agree with you is a cheap shot, now go wind your cuckoo clock

          • Baloo

            That IS the point, doofus … try to keep up

          • togahombre

            go get some new tinfoil

          • Baloo

            Get rid of those rose colored glasses

      • McGov

        Tom, I’m not referring to one comment.

    • McGov, I agree with virtually every point of view you take, but in this instance I have to tell you that you are dead wrong and that Tinky is dead right. Lance Armstrong: no testing evidence available to prove him wrong, but the court of public and private opinion nailed him. I maintain it is the not only the right, but the duty, of thinking of horse folks, and this includes Turf Writers, a) to use their brains to write what they believe to be the truth and b) not to glorify known or suspected cheaters. Some in the turf writing community are unable to do this. They prefer to live and write in ignorance. They serve only to further to benefit the wrong element in racing, one that has prevented the sport from taking its rightful position as a great sport instead of just another pharmaceutically enhanced freak show.

      • Tango F

        By promoting a bias, a writer transforms from a journalist to a propagandist.

    • BREAKING NEWS…this just in…Judge Roy Moore has evidence of a conspiracy and the motivation behind reports that Arrogate was juiced for his good races and will reveal this information within days if he he not rubbed out before then. Stayed tuned.

      • McGov

        Two wrongs don’t make a right ;) . Tinky recently taught me that italic thing lol. Hoping Tinky doesn’t teach others – things that might not be true- or at least have a bit more than the bad form of a horse, after flying around the world, and trying so hard to beat the best of the best.
        But I get your point and I agree with some of it. Racing needs to spend more resources confronting these issues. Old school investigations combined with new school technology etc. The time for ignoring and hiding is over…..let Hollywood, show us the way.
        Can’t believe I just typed let Hollywood show us….. ;)

        • Tango F

          Then if you agree that there are PED issues, where better to start than with the trainers that have ridiculously high percentages?

        • Billy

          Welcome to HTML…you can also do bold underlined strike through ;)

      • Always Curious

        I am waiting for “leaks” to come out on Arrogate’s mystery.

        • Baloo

          Someone will tell but it might be years from now …

    • Michael Castellano

      There is plenty of circumstantial facts which leads one to the suspicion that something was going on with Arrogate. You take a horse, with no apparent recent injuries, with a lightly raced but also a late developing career, just developing into his prime years, who suddenly suffers a rapid unexplained decline in his performance. And the same horse once recently ran a race that NO horse in the last 30 years has run on the dirt at a classic distance. A race of Secretariat level quality that broke a hundred year track record in a time no one has approached on an Eastern dirt track in the last thirty years at 1 1/4. A race that he won by about three seconds. A race that appeared almost too good to be true. It is also known that horses aided by the suspect substances have a short shelf life of improved ability So you are faced with two possibilities, either the horse was another Secretariat or he had help. Help which becomes much less effective over time. Plus he comes from a barn that has a top horse every year which often follow a similar pattern. And to be fair, this is an all too common pattern we see with some other well known trainers. And may be one of the reasons the 21st Century thoroughbreds have such short careers.

      • McGov

        Many horses have only flashes of THEIR FULL capacity. Arrogate just has unbelievable talent. His capacity is remarkable.
        The name of the game with horses and racing is to keep a horse as close to their full capacity as is possible. Most horses rarely run at full capacity but small degrees less or sometimes much less…because of one thing, or another. There always seems to be something wrong with thoroughbred racehorses. Always something lol.
        There are times when a horse simply doesn’t want to do it any more. They perhaps know that running as fast as they can is not necessarily in their best interest. They get used to the backstretch and don’t mind training and sometimes especially don’t mind training because of the pain relief they are given etc. Many weeks out of a race, no drug testing etc. Legal drugs.
        My point is….there are many potential reasons that Arrogate dropped off ….from Dubai to boredom to slight aches to whatever ails a horse that isn’t necessarily earth shattering or causes lameness but contributes to them not achieving their very best. My guess if it was physical would be right front….based on his reluctance at times to switch in stretch.
        For all we know this horse might have simply spit the bit because he got some kickback and didn’t like it….seriously, it can be that simple with some horses if they are stubborn or whatever mood etc.
        There is no benefit to me writing in defence of this horse achieving his success without “assistance”.
        I think he did it on his own. I recommend this pedigree be explored further.
        I’ll leave it at that. I appreciate the healthy exchanges of differing opinions, thanks Michael.

      • Minneola

        I call it the “Bayern effect.”

        • Baloo

          There has been a definite pattern with horses from this barn

  • Tango F

    We can see the man behind the curtain, Steve!!!!

  • martin schiff

    HE GAVE HORSE RACING A CLEAR CUT SECOND GREATEST HORSE OF ALL TIME IF HE RETIRED AFTER DUBAI’S WORLD CUP. NOW THE DEBATE CONTINUES AS THERE NEVER HAS BEEN BEHIND SECRETARIAT. I KNOW THE ONES BEING IN THAT DEBATE WOULD HAVE BOWED DOWN AND AGREED THE DEBATE WOULD BE WHO IS THIRD. NOW WE STILL HAVE NO CLEAR CUT SECOND BEST BEHIND BIG RED.

    • gus stewart

      Unfortunately we have to question all things that have changed in racing over the last 30 years. As in all sports. But if you look at the complete records of horses after they hit peak form and how many times they race without big gaps in between races. You pretty much can determine how great they natrually are without questioning chemical enhancements. in my time being a fan since early seventies, begrudgingly after being a fan of a cal bred, i have only seen one walkover,, in 1980, and the body of work done in the strub series and the jock who rode many great horses earlier then the seventies proclaim this is the best he ever rode, i will say spectaular bid is second best on my list.

      • Rich Land

        Forego rarely mentioned in these greatest horse conversations. Infirm and full of heart, trained by a man who believed in hay oats and (lots of) cold water.

        • gus stewart

          of course, he and many other hay oats and ice cold water was the protocol. So when you have trainers that were buying horses before the derby or claiming one, and improved 2 or 3 seconds in their next starts, its difficult to determine what real and what’s ahh lack of a better words, super trainer induced!!! just in saying that the bid did those 3 races at difference distances close together, and his times were off the charts. And no I don’t think bud delp was ya know todays super trainer category.

          • Rich Land

            As impressive as any American racehorse, carrying weight, setting track records at 7f and 10f; I seem to recall SB winning four or five graded stakes as a 3YO prepping for the Derby

        • Meg Hiers

          He may have believed in hay oats and water, but he had plenty of other substances at his disposal, as the testing was even poorer in those days.

    • Judoon

      If Arrogate had retired after Dubai, he would not have made my top ten since he had run so few races. I won’t rank a horse super-high unless it has a reasonable body of work behind it. Anyway, I don’t think there needs to be a clear-cut best or second best. I might say Kelso whereas someone else picks Dr. Fager and a third person goes for Citation. It’s all good.

    • Harry Plummer

      Hello Martin, I don’t think for one moment he was the second greatest racehorse at all. I applaud his victories but I can name other horses ahead of him -of course this is just my opinion. Cheers!

    • Baloo

      Delusional Nile swimmer

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Arrogates performance in the Classic was not disgraceful, just not up to his previous standards…..Maybe Gunnevara, who dead heated for fifth with Arrogate, will beat Gun Runner on his home track at Gulfstream in the Pegasus…..then what will you say? Arrogate needs a longer stretch and wider turns than Del Mar offers to run his best, but you will just not give him any credit. You even advise people not to breed to him!
    Actually, your posts are quite sad, your thinking is misguided, and I am sorry that your hatred for anything Baffert seems to consume your waking and sleeping hours.
    Perhaps you should consider therapy for the sake of your own happiness. This world has much to offer you other than the time and thought you appear to spend on bashing Baffert.

    • Lehane

      You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Arrogate won at Del Mar in 2016.

      • Minneola

        If you get a reply it will be something like this: “The horse faced an easy field that day.”

    • duchess

      Baffert is a human being. He is not a perfect being by any means. Why the blind devotion to him?

  • Chrissy Gentry

    My opinion is that all of Arrogate is the real Arrogate. Arrogate had strung several really nice races, but then he threw in the towel for whatever reason.

    As I know it, Steve has been high on the horse, talking him up as “otherworldly”. He wants to remember that Arrogate, and wants others to remember that Arrogate. It’s his opinion, and his opinion is probably backed by bias, backers, friends, sponsors, and probably fell in love with the horse too. You know what they say about love and blindness.

    • Chrissy Gentry

      I thought Arrogate ran some great races and there is nothing wrong with wanting nothing to do with racing after that. Looking for excuses just says something is wrong with that.

      Enjoy retirement you gorgeous grey.

  • ctgreyhound

    That’s it! Don’t focus on the negative aspects of Arrogate, remember & relive his far too short glory days. Sorting out what went wrong, besides the obvious, is a tedious maze of speculation….the bottomless pit.

    • Tango F

      not really – what is at stake is the future of the sport

  • zafonic

    How did Haskin come to the foregone conclusion that the four very impressive runs from Arrogate was the real Arrogate? Conspiracy theories are just that when concrete, unbiased evidence points to the contrary. There is no concrete, unbiased proof for the way Arrogate ran in his wins or losses. The connections never mentioned a physical problem. Did they do that to protect the stud value? I don’t know, but we had a lot of different stories from the trainer and rider. The rider states he doesn’t like the track, but the trainer disagrees. Two weeks prior to the Awesome Again, the trainer states that “Arrogate will have to come a long way to make the BCC, after watching his work. One week later, which is one week before the Awesome Again, the trainer states “he is ready to run next week” after watching Arrogate’s work. If you add up the BC OCCT, the lifetime past performances of Bob Baffert involving drugs, and the flat performances of Arrogate, nothing is a conspiracy theory.

    • Baloo

      Haskin is just part of the hype machine

  • Chrissy Gentry

    I’ll add one additional ingredient on what may have led to the mediocre performances, and the bad one.

    Once in a blue in such instances I will see someone post a verse that resonates with me, and it has been what I was also thinking. Maybe the other factors are held in this: Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

    • Baloo

      Let us pray

  • David Juffet

    The Travers raised the flag for me. Horses don’t run like that.

    • Guamo

      They do with Super Vitamins.

  • Race girl

    Is there no drug testing in Dubai? Don’t know, so just asking.

    • Baloo

      Not for a blood building PED

  • Baloo

    The “real Arrogate” is the one who lost three times at Del Mar. Furthermore, the other horses from that barn were for real in the BC, too, for maybe the first time in some years.

    • Guamo

      Yep. Will be interesting to see how certain horses run in the future.

  • peggy conroy

    That pic of Arrogate’s right rear shoe which appeared here, I think, has never been mentioned. Was the photo just an artifact or does he actually have a foot issue which required that the shoe be affixed in an abnormal position? Something physical seems more likely than just the track. Good horses don’t have to take the track with them, as the old saying goes.

  • Always Curious

    I was on that BH blog and asked the same question of Mr. Haskin that I asked here: Has any horse shown the kind of brilliance as Arrogate and then just stopped. He stated he Could Not. He has a great memory of the horses of the past so I thought his response was significant. BTW Longines just announced again that Arrogate is #1 TB in the world. Now that is a meaningless award.

  • Always Curious

    I will repeat myself for those just joining the conversation: the Bloodhorse is owned by the Jockey Club. It changed hands a few years ago. I subscribe to the paper edition. There are better, more in depth articles there IMO. I confess I love the pictures too. With the JC owning it, you won’t see anything controversial there. Haskin is right. Ray Paulick is beholding to no one. That’s a good thing.

  • Beau Geste

    I love how the accusations have now gone from Baffert and Arrogate to Steve Haskins.

    • Always Curious

      Because???? A famous, highly regarded turf writer, writes a piece on what happened to Arrogate and does not address the “elephant in the room” and censors comments.He stated as much, he is accountable to the BH & the JC. He even stated Ray Paulick is not accountable to no one, like the JC. Certainly Ray could be sued and to my knowledge has not.

      • Beau Geste

        Because the “elephant in the room” only exists with the exclusion of every other possibility. There are people on horse racing sites who specialize in conjecture and can make everything appear corrupt and conspiratorial. I’ve been around too long to think that all of this is impossible, but the frequency of these “suggestions” and their all knowing tone have left me and I’m guessing a few others as well pretty bored.

        • Chrissy Gentry

          To my knowledge that isn’t want “elephant in the room” stands for. It speaks of an obvious problem no one cares to talk about.

          I don’t spend that kind of time to know what everyone is saying so your conspiracy theorist theory may be true for some, but I will say that I have noticed problems on B-H of which I have already stated. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but it has given me the appearance of something odd and suspicious going on. My opinion is that they are set on creating an image of horse racing and certain people in the industry and if something does not fit within that image, it is deleted and/or attacked. There is an unfairness about it, that creates more suspicions. If others are suspicious of them they need to understand how they have contributed to the problem. I give Steve credit for admitting he isn’t a free agent and needs to submit to them. I’m not a fan, but I believe in giving credit where credit is due and that was big of him to confess.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            And for what it’s worth, if I don’t care for the behavior I don’t waste my time. So, I don’t waste my time with them. I’m sure they have other nice things to offer, just some things leave a sour taste in my mouth and nothing tastes good after that.

        • Cuffdaddy

          I suppose it matters the goal of the individuals you speak of. I hope that the majority of these individuals just want what is best for the welfare of the actual horses and the industry as a whole. I am in that group.

          • Beau Geste

            I’m glad that you are; I don’t believe everyone is.

          • Baloo

            Well ignoring the demise of seven horses and the subsequent whitewashing of Mr Baffert who admitted to administering a non-prescribed medication SHOULD be enough to show you that HE is NOT

        • Always Curious

          I am to the point anything is possible. In every area of life, from my life long experience. This article is a BH article about Arrogate, this comments are fair game on it. That’s my point. No one knows what really happened to Arrogate, as far as the public is concerned.

        • Always Curious

          This is an article inthe BH that was shared on the PR, so comments on it are appropriate. Yawn. Lol

        • Minneola

          I believe that you are missing the whole point in this discussion. If you took the time to read Haskin’s story, you would note that the main idea of it was to figure out the mystery of why Arrogate had such a stellar four big win races and, then, just as abruptly, the final three were all losses. In going through all of the many possible factors, Haskin neglected to even mention one very glaring difference in this year’s races going up to and in to the BC: the more stringent testing. This was very widely reported and discussed by many. Yet, Haskin avoided even mentioning it in any way, shape, or form. By doing so, he raised a lot of eyebrows because it was deliberately omitted. Why? Why didn’t he do so? To many, it looked a bit suspicious. That is the “elephant in the room.” We all saw it and, yet, Haskin pretended it wasn’t there.

          • Beau Geste

            I understood the point of the article; my remarks were in reference to the know it alls who chose to convict someone without benefit of trial. The fact is, if you want a similar not exact scenario to Arrogate, every year you have a three year old who runs like a champion through the Derby prep races only to wear out through the summer. The fact is the effects of running in Dubai have been seen in many other horses. The fact is, we don’t know nearly as much about this as many people here would have you believe.

          • Minneola

            Not all of those other horses, however, had a trainer that has had plenty of accusations about his integrity. Sometimes, one has to do the math and ask questions rather than just accept what is convenient.

          • Beau Geste

            It’s not convenient, it’s fairness. I’ve grown pretty tired of certain posters who have proclaimed themselves “the conscience of racing”. We’re all aware of the presence of drugs and cheating in horse racing. The convenience of ignoring every other possible factor to support your opinion is simply unfair. This approach would never stand in a courtroom; it shouldn’t be accepted here.

          • Baloo

            Then start with the 30% trainers and wake up if you are “aware “

          • Beau Geste

            As this is the internet and comments come from everywhere, I don’t know what part of the world is your home, but here in the United States, it is the opposite; Innocent until proven guilty. If these are the “facts” the case should be presented to any of the racing boards that oversee the many venues where Baffert runs his horses. Once he is found guilty by one, the rest will follow as happened with Rick Dutrow. I’m not defending any trainers and have made it clear through many of my postings that any one and any thing in violation should be punished severely.

          • Baloo

            He runs his local racing board
            Are you getting the picture yet?

  • SteveD

    Baffert saying Arrogate “ran short” after SDH was very suspicious to me. And Tinky has said everything else I think.
    I don’t know the owners of Arrogate, but I do know other owners Baffert trains for, and if their horses have been given PEDs, they are completely unaware of it.
    I have defended BB on the reasoning that he would never do such a thing without the owners knowledge or consent.
    Could I be naive and just plain wrong??

  • NY Breds

    Hmmmm…Out of Competition Testing for the BC…all of Baffert’s horses did nothing and Pletcher has only two entries for the entire two day BC out of the hundreds of horses he is training…coincidence? …sure why not

    • RayPaulick

      I wouldn’t call four seconds and one third in 13 races as “did nothing,” though Bob Baffert has set the bar pretty high as far as expectations go. He did have several horses, including Arrogate, run well below expectations.

      • Beau Geste

        I wonder if you realize the inference that you are in agreement that accompanies many of the accusations against Baffert. If that is in fact the case, itwould cause me to listen a little more closely. If it is not, it might do well to make that clear to the posting public.

  • Beau Geste

    Just wonder, if Arrogate does turn out to be a credible sire, will anyone here be as fast to acknowledge as they were to accuse?

    • Chrissy Gentry

      I’ll admit I haven’t read every comment everywhere on this topic. What I have found are theories of possibilities. I realize some comments were deleted on B-H, so again, don’t know all that was said, yet there is a difference between saying someone did something and saying that the possibility exists, especially knowing there is a history of behavior in that area.

      My opinion is that Steve opened up a can of worms and decided to pick and choose what he would allow out of that can. He’s admitted as much in regards to censoring. I wouldn’t allow undocumented accusations either, but there is a difference between stating that there is another theory that is a possibility and accusing.

  • Al Milano

    This thread of posts is pretty interesting and I suppose there’s a lot of truth here, but…….

    When testing at the Belmont Stakes put I’ll Have Another in a tough spot, trainer O’Neill found a reason and a way to scratch the horse. He gave up a shot at the Triple Crown, possibly because he knew his horse couldn’t win it without any ‘help’.

    At the time, I was far from surprised, being a player who had no illusions about the trainer.

    So I’m just asking, if indeed Baffert knew he was running against what is being claimed here, why did he enter the horse anyway? What did Arrogate have to prove? Even in Baffert’s universe. What was he trying to prove by running a horse with this suspected, deep deficit?

    • Minneola

      You are not alone in wondering what in the heck was going through Baffert’s head! After the first loss, I was anticipating some sort of narrative about the horse being retired for some reason. That didn’t happen. Then, after the loss of the PC, I truly expected that they would announce that the horse had a “something” and would not be entered in the Classic. That didn’t happen. Why continue trying to pound a square peg into a round hole? Or, was it that the first loss at DM was a bit too bad and there was concern about the future of the horse’s breeding career? Was the decision one that Baffert made or the breeding farm? Was Arrogate kept racing trying to redeem that first loss? Could it be that there was no turning back since, if they did scratch him, then, rumors would really be flying?

      • Baloo

        Could it be that Juddmonte insisted?

        • Minneola

          Don’t know but the timing….. These last three losses coincided during the same period in which it was announced that Arrogate was going to Juddmonte for breeding and, then, a fee of $75k (kind of high for a first year stallion that raced less than a dozen times and those three losses) was also announced within days of the BCC. Could it be that the breeder is trying to dispell any concerns of those considering breeding their better mares to him? Again, it is the timing…. Don’t know but something to think about.

  • gammyp6

    …or maybe Arrogate did hate Del Mar…..or did not want to perform….why can’t it be that simple….I choose to believe in the integrity of Steve Haskin…I do not believe he is anyone’s mouthpiece….

  • Baloo

    Haskin has left the comments open on his thread for four days – BH policy is to close comments after three days.
    Methinks that Tinky’s observations hit real close to home, or Haskin would not perpetuate the back patting party that the threads became after his temper tantrum over some truths. I find his behavior very telling

    • Chrissy Gentry

      I think Tinky said it best, “sad and also revealing”. Those are my exact sentiments regarding BH and I personally choose not to go there, not worth it. I find it a stronghold with too many guards censoring things that were not even said in a mean way, and appearing just inquisitive. I don’t doubt they have their horrible comments too that warrant deleting, but there is too much of the inquisitive deleted, while much of the ugliness left for my tastes.

      I also think Tinky was right in reference to the old and new. I also see them as the old, and the Paulick Report emerging as the new, trying to shed a light in the darkness.

      • Chrissy Gentry

        Also, to be fair Baloo, I think I have seen his comments section go on longer than the permitted time before. I don’t know as I don’t bother anymore and don’t care enough for games to do the research.

        But, I know what you mean about sensing Tinky hit a nerve, especially after he kicked Tinky out, then asks where Tinky was. To me that was an invitation to his backers to join in on the sarcasm. People play their games, I just find it unprofessional for someone in his position. He doesn’t have to change for me, and I am sure he doesn’t care to, but I sure don’t need to say for it either.

        • Chrissy Gentry

          Let them have their fun. Everything catches up to us eventually.

          • Minneola

            Yes, what goes around, comes around. Karma.

        • Minneola

          I saw that post of Haskin and it did look like he was baiting others to join him in attacking Tinky. Extremely unprofessional! I thought about replying to Haskin but, then, realized he would just delete my post. I also took a quick look at some of the “newest” posts and there were a couple that lightly touched on some of the same factors that Tinky had posted. And, still today, Haskin was replying in a critical manner to anyone that went against his narrative. I don’t know if additional posts were deleted but it did devalue my opinion of Haskin as well as BH since they are aware of what is going on and are condoning his actions.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            Sometimes it isn’t worth the energy to come against the old establishment, better to spend it paving a better path. Not saying you need not make your sentiments and voice heard there, but if the door is closed, move on. Can’t force yourself on others. My take on it.

          • Chrissy Gentry

            That is something I’ve seen there too. It isn’t just about being inquisitive, but if an opinion is posted against the narrative, it can be deleted. I won’t claim to know all the reasons why BH does that, but if there is suspicion they need to recognize their role in contributing to that suspicion.

            Anyway, I think I’ve spent all the energy I’ve cared to spend on that. It was nice to be able to voice our frustrations and find that others have also been feeling the same. That’s often how change occurs.

            Moving on to better and brighter things.

            I wish Arrogate a happy and successful retirement. He deserves it.

  • Bill B.

    I’m very late for this topic, but just to add my two cents, I don’t think I will ever look at Haskin in the same way again. I do not approve of censorship, particularly just because an opinion is not liked. Was very surprised by his unprofessionalism and almost a temper tantrum stance. I have no idea what was with this horse and never will. Ran 11 whole time, ran four great races, three ordinary ones and lost four, not exactly the resume of one of the greats. Personally, my guess is the answer lies somewhere in those 2/3 month layoffs between races. Either he was not trained correctly or there was something wrong with him. If it was training, I hope Baffert has learned his lesson that less is not more. Goodbye. After all of this, I’m ready for a new topic and I guess that would briefly be Gun Runner before he too is gone, but I do worry about what is left after that. We need some strong three year olds in 2018.

  • Michael Keller

    People “in” the industry, who have qualified opinions, will have the ability to look at the horse they felt was the “real” Arrogate. Breeders, bloodstock advisors, trainers, etc. — will recognize that this horse had two distinct phases two his career, that being pre and post Dubai. Everyone can point fingers, blame, hypothesize, etc., and all of that is a fallacious argument. I think that again, the general public, fans, and others seem to have this sense of entitlement and expectation that horses’ connections will do what the general public/fans/others want, desire, say they would do if they owned the horse. Another fallacious argument.

    I am glad I had the opportunity to see Arrogate at his peak and enjoy him and some very exciting races.

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