O’Neill Hearing: ‘TCO2 Levels Were Manipulated’

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What exactly is a TCO2 “trifecta”?

Steffan Imhoff, the California Horse Racing Board hearing officer who conducted the hearing on the August 2010 TCO2 complaint (commonly called a milkshake) against trainer Doug O’Neill, defines it this way: of the 63 horses that raced at Del Mar on Aug. 25, 2010, the three highest TCO2 test results were all from horses trained by O’Neill, including Argenta, whose 39.4 millimole per liter level was well above the legal threshold of 37.0.

That TCO2 violation for Argenta, the fourth in O’Neill’s career since 2006, led to a recommendation last week by the hearing officer that O’Neill be suspended 45 days and fined $15,000. The CHRB approved the recommendation, but the suspension, which can be appealed, will not take effect until sometime after July 1.

O’Neill started three horses that August 2010 afternoon at Del Mar. Argenta finished eighth in a $12,500 claiming race at odds of 20-1. Bandiea Union, who tested at 37.80, finished second at odds of 11-1 in a $10,000 claiming race. “To complete the trifecta,” wrote Imhoff,  Hey Elvis, who finished second in the $75,000 Harry F. Brubaker Stakes at 11-10 odds, tested with the third highest level of the day, at 37.35.

Speaking of odds, hearing officer Imhoff said the chances of O’Neill horses ranking 1-2-3 by TCO2 levels among all starters that day as “a random event” were 41,664-to-1. “The trainer controls the TCO2 levels.”

In her next start, incidentally, after O’Neill was notified in early September of Argenta’s alleged TCO2 violation, the filly tested at 29.75.

“This constituted a dramatic shift of 9.65 mm/l,” wrote Imhoff. “We believe these dramatic shifts are possible because there are several factors that affect TCO2 levels that are under the trainer’s control.”

Imhoff said in his proposed decision to the board that O’Neill presented a compelling argument that Argenta did not receive a traditional milkshake – a bicarbonate loading of baking soda, confectionary sugar and water through a nasogastric tube. The purpose of increasing TCO2 levels is to neutralize lactic acid buildup that leads to muscle fatigue.

Further tests from the Maddy Lab supported O’Neill’s contention. Sodium and chloride levels for Argenta both tested in the normal range, and Imhoff wrote in his report that experts for O’Neill and the CHRB “agreed that if Argenta had been milkshaked with baking soda (NaHCO3) this would have resulted in a highly elevated sodium level.”

Part of O’Neill’s defense was based on the charge that testing equipment was not reliable because of the unusually high average for all horses tested for TCO2 levels at Del Mar Aug. 25, 2010. The average was 33.46, the second highest average for the entire year in California, exceeded only by the 33.71 average TCO2  for horses that raced at Santa Anita Feb. 24, 2010.

Attorneys for O’Neill also argued the California TCO2 rule is “irrational” because, unlike some other states, it does not permit a higher legal threshold for horses treated on raceday with the anti-bleeder medication furosemide, or Lasix. This so-called “Lasix bump” puts the threshold at 39.0 for Lasix horses in states like New York and Illinois.

The argument for the “Lasix bump” was not given credence by Imhoff after dismissing a paper submitted by O’Neill’s attorneys suggesting administration of Lasix raised the TCO2 level by 4.9mm/l. Imhoff said based on average TCO2 levels, the “Lasix bump” would increase the overall average of “unmanipulated” horses to 38.3. Since over 95% of horses receive Lasix, Imhoff wrote, “This means that virtually every race horse in California should be earning a TCO2 positive. Instead it is more like .0001%.”

The attorney general’s office prosecuting the case, Imhoff wrote, “Contends that overwhelming evidence was presented that Argenta’s TCO2 levels were manipulated by O’Neill and that therefore he should be held to account for his misconduct whether it be intentional or negligent.”

Imhoff pointed out in his decision that Rule 1843.6, applicable to the case, does not say “manipulation” of TCO2 levels is illegal, only that testing above the 37.0 threshold is.

“A trainer can manipulate his horses’ TCO2 level on race day without administering a sodium based (NaHCO3) milkshake,” he wrote.  Among the methods of doing so are:

-Lasix, with Imhoff writing “credible evidence shows a correlation between the amount of Lasix given and the effect on TCO2 levels.” Veterinarian Joseph Dowd gave Argenta a 10cc shot of Lasix (at O’Neill’s instructions) approximately four hours before post time, and blood was drawn for testing 40 minutes before the race. (Note: According to a spokesman for CHRB, the Hearing Officer erroneously wrote that the Lasix was administered 40 minutes prior to post.)

-Feed. “We also find clear evidence that the kind and amount of feed given can affect the horses TCO2 levels,” Imhoff wrote. “Again it is indisputable, and we so hold, that the trainer controls his charges’ diet, and thus controls the TCO2 level affected by diet.”

-Exercise. “We hold that to the extent a horse’s exercise program (how far, fast and often they work) affects TCO2 levels on race day the schedule is completely under the control of the trainer,” said Imhoff.

-Sweating and dehydration. “Argenta shipped over in a van from Hollywood Park on an extremely hot day….and the filly may have been sweating and dehydrated,” wrote Imhoff. “Of course the main responsibility for the condition of the filly falls on her trainer. It was up to O’Neill to make certain Argenta was ready to run. We conclude that any increase in her TCO2 level caused by dehydration was under his control.”

In his conclusion, Imhoff wrote: “We rejected (O’Neill’s) well argued due process defense primarily because of the overwhelming evidence that California trainers in general and Mr. O’Neill in particular have learned various ways to manipulate TCO2 scores without serving milkshakes. We still cannot say it was done here intentionally.”

To read hearing officer Steffan Imhoff’s decision to the CHRB, click here.

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  • Tammy37

    wait a minute. he says oneill manipulated tc02 levels with lasix, feed, excercise and the weather. which one of those is illegal?  this proves it, he cheats by only running his horses on hot days. unbelievable, if this does not get rick arthur out, we are done.  

    • Jerry

       None of those are illegal. Testing over 37 is illegal no matter how the trainer gets the test result there. From the article, “California trainers in general and Mr. O’Neill in particular have
      learned various ways to manipulate TCO2 scores without serving
      milkshakes. We still cannot say it was done here intentionally.”

      • Barry Irwin

        Tammy 37 and Jerry have 3 total Paulick Report posts between them!

        • Mparrish11

          barry.. your immature. act your age, and go rain on someone elses parade. I know losing is tough enough with ‘Went the Day Well’, but please stop trying to bring everyone else down with you.

          • Anne

            “rain on someone elses parade”…eerily similar to James D. Jimenez previous post of “peed on your own parade”. Things that make you go “hmmm”…I think I smell a PR firm! After all, Mr. Cash Call is clearly slick as they come.

          • James D. Jimenez

            Just me, one single person. You really shouldn’t make these type of statements without proof of which you have none.

            And about that comment: I as many in the racing world was absolutely shocked when the words came out of Barry’s mouth after just winning what many consider the most important race in the world, or at least the U.S. Just seemed as though there was an agenda! Like I said below, I’ve admired some of the things Barry has done for the sport, others not so much. Just my opinion and maybe not yours, no big deal.

          • James D. Jimenez

            Just me, one single person. You really shouldn’t make these type of statements without proof of which you have none.
            And about that comment: I as many in the racing world was absolutely shocked when the words came out of Barry’s mouth after just winning what many consider the most important race in the world, or at least the U.S. Just seemed as though there was an agenda! Like I said below, I’ve admired some of the things Barry has done for the sport, others not so much. Just my opinion and maybe not yours, no big deal.
            This Disqus is getting crazy, you never know where your post is going to show up, lol.

          • Barry Irwin

            Obviously there is a lot of moisture in the air. Could this have contributed to those elevated carbon numbers? Quite possible I would say.

          • Barry Irwin

            This is this guy’s first and only post. Put up job. Nice try jerk.

        • Tammy37

          is there a minimum amount of posts we are allowed on oneil. i must have missed that in the paulick rules.

          • Barry Irwin

            Honey, you missed way more than the rules, you missed common sense somewhere along the way. And for this you get paid?

        • Gaited Filly

          So what does that mean?

    • Cass

      If I am reading it correctly the report says that in Ohio tco2 levels were reduced to 0 from 17% after the new rule of 37mm level was introduced.  Similarly for other tracks in Ca.  This leads me to believe trainers can definately control tco2 levels if they think they may be reprimanded.   Is Doug Oneill unable to control it for some reason?  unless there is a time frame involved here that I have not looked into yet

      • Larry Ensor

        Controlling a horse’s TCO2 level is not very difficult even if you don’t fully understand the science behind it. Testers for lactic acid can be bought over the internet. And then it is just a matter of trail and error.

  • Tammy37

    wait a minute. he says oneill manipulated tc02 levels with lasix, feed, excercise and the weather. which one of those is illegal?  this proves it, he cheats by only running his horses on hot days. unbelievable, if this does not get rick arthur out, we are done.  

  • Jerry

     None of those are illegal. Testing over 37 is illegal no matter how the trainer gets the test result there. From the article, “California trainers in general and Mr. O’Neill in particular have
    learned various ways to manipulate TCO2 scores without serving
    milkshakes. We still cannot say it was done here intentionally.”

  • T Morrison

    This is completely ridiculous. With the exception of the Lasix administration (which was presumably legal?) Mr O’Neill has been punished for the way he has fed, exercised and provided drinking water for his horse(s), errr, isn’t that what trainers have been doing from the dawn of time in an effort to get an edge in races!? 

    Even if his training policies are wrong I can’t see that this can in any way be illegal unless there is compelling evidence that he was deliberately trying to stop his horses winning. Here in Europe, horses that are known to bleed are regularly taken off their full water supply the night before they race in an effort to reduce the chances of them bleeding. That’s not seen as cheating!

  • T Morrison

    This is completely ridiculous. With the exception of the Lasix administration (which was presumably legal?) Mr O’Neill has been punished for the way he has fed, exercised and provided drinking water for his horse(s), errr, isn’t that what trainers have been doing from the dawn of time in an effort to get an edge in races!? 

    Even if his training policies are wrong I can’t see that this can in any way be illegal unless there is compelling evidence that he was deliberately trying to stop his horses winning. Here in Europe, horses that are known to bleed are regularly taken off their full water supply the night before they race in an effort to reduce the chances of them bleeding. That’s not seen as cheating!

  • Bourbon Gal

    Lasix, feed, exercise, sweating and dehydration can increase TC02 levels and any or all of those things may have contributed to Argenta’s higher test result, not an intentional manipulation by Doug O’Neill.

    I watched My Flag zip a quick 3 furlongs in 33 flat the day before a Grade 1 race, which she won. The purpose of the work was specifically to decrease lactic acid. Would she have tested too high because of that “manipulation”?

  • Bourbon Gal

    Lasix, feed, exercise, sweating and dehydration can increase TC02 levels and any or all of those things may have contributed to Argenta’s higher test result, not an intentional manipulation by Doug O’Neill.

    I watched My Flag zip a quick 3 furlongs in 33 flat the day before a Grade 1 race, which she won. The purpose of the work was specifically to decrease lactic acid. Would she have tested too high because of that “manipulation”?

  • Hossracergp

    What is the normal treatment time for lasix in CA? Seems odd to be giving 10 cc’s only 40 minutes prior to post.

    • Jay

      The legal limit is 4 hours before post time. This must be an error by the writer or Dowd and O’neill would be out the back gate?

      • RayPaulick

         You are correct that the Hearing Officer was in error in his report, according to a spokesman for CHRB. The Lasix was administered four hours out, and blood was drawn for testing at 40 minutes to post. The story has been corrected to reflect that.

  • Hossracergp

    What is the normal treatment time for lasix in CA? Seems odd to be giving 10 cc’s only 40 minutes prior to post.

  • Backontop

    Pretty sure that comment about 10cc of lasix 40 minutes prior to post is incorrect. First, no vet would do it. Second, the horse would be peeing like a hose in the saddling paddock, post parade and gate. 

    I can state for a fact that Doug does ship, feed, and exercise his horses so he may indeed be guilty, LOL!!!!

    When will this insanity be over?

    • RayPaulick

       The Hearing Officer report incorrectly stated the Lasix was given 40 minutes. That was when the pre-race sample was taken. The Lasix was administered approximately four hours out.

  • Backontop

    Pretty sure that comment about 10cc of lasix 40 minutes prior to post is incorrect. First, no vet would do it. Second, the horse would be peeing like a hose in the saddling paddock, post parade and gate. 

    I can state for a fact that Doug does ship, feed, and exercise his horses so he may indeed be guilty, LOL!!!!

    When will this insanity be over?

  • Jay

    The legal limit is 4 hours before post time. This must be an error by the writer or Dowd and O’neill would be out the back gate?

  • Barry Irwin

    As good a job as Doug O’Neill has done in training I’ll Have Another–and make no mistake he has done a superb job–it pales in comparison to the damage control designed and carried out by his PR chief, which includes rapid fire posts on Paulick Report. One only has to click on the PR logo in the upper left hand corner to see how new and limited these posters are and the only logical conclusion is that they are hired hands. This same type of stunt is stock in trade for one of O’Neill’s biggest supporters, who probably is assisting in the PR campaign.

    • Lost In The Fog

      Yes Barry you nailed it and it is obvious from looking at the total number of posts related to some of the first commenters on this story.  The only logical conclusion is the one you suggest.  This is standard practice with PR firms who specialize in damage control for personalities and major corporations.  They monitor websites and social media like hawks and have paid commenters who jump on anything related to their client and try to spin the conversation in a positive direction as quickly as possible.

      • Anne

        There has clearly been a change since the first of the week and I’ve notices Mr. Jimenez grammar has vastly improved…sentence structure etc. Maybe he finally found some horses to shoe?

        • James D. Jimenez

          Anne, 
          If this and Don Reed’s above reply are about me then I’m truly honored. 

          Don, we aren’t uneducated on the racetrack and today’s farriers are pretty sharp if I do say so myself. 

          Anne, plenty of horses to shoe. If you would you ever care to visit the backside please do not hesitate to ask. It would be my pleasure.

    • McGov

      Only in America.

    • Don Reed

      When someone who claims to be working in a racing barn -

      A) Has the time to be sending in multiple postings which -

      B) Feature complete sentences and other hallmarks of a level of education rarely attained by embers of the racing community…

      How long could this scam have gone unnoticed?

      Reminds me of the German spies in American uniforms during the Battle of the Bulge (WWII) who pulled into a Belgian gas depot driving a captured U.S. jeep and told the G.I. pumping the gas, “Petrol, please.”

      They were shot.

      • Jimculpepper

        “Embers” as in “firebrands” of the racing community, or “members” meaning you are as bad on a keyboard as I am?  Glad I am an outsider or your remark about  level of education would annoy me. I innocently stumbled into the study of thoroughbred pedigrees as an adjunct to my study of population genetics.  Strange how the originators of the breed were apparently much better educated about selective breeding than their spiritual descendants.

      • Rachel

        My Uncle was in the hell called the Battle of the Bulge…not sure how’d he’d feel you comparing hard working backstretch folks’ education levels, or any American for that matter, to Nazi spies trying to infiltrate and kill Allied troops…well, actually, knowing him like I did, I’m exactly sure how he’d feel…

        • James D. Jimenez

          Rachel,
          A salute to your Uncle for his service!Don Reed seems very comfortable discussing my education, my profession, and seems to know that I’m 3/4 German and is now comparing me to a Nazi spy.

    • Ssk12955

      I like it, Sherlock Irwin

    • Luigi Giovanni

      Kelly Weitsma claims to be O’Neill’s representative, as this tweet attests:
      e class=”twitter-tweet”>BTW… @JasonShandler you need to get your ass at the Belmont this year!!! I’ve repped last 3 contenders. This one’s gonna win!!!!!!!!!!— Kelly Wietsma (@equisponse) June 1, 2012

    • Luigi Giovanni

      Kelly Weitsma claims to be O’Neill’s representative, as this post of Kelly attests:

      BTW… @JasonShandler you need to get your ass at the Belmont this year!!! I’ve repped last 3 contenders. This one’s gonna win!!!!!!!!!!— Kelly Wietsma (@equisponse) June 1, 2012

    • hip703

      Looks like Barry Irwin had another.

      • Cass

         seems to me Barry Irwin has hit the nail on the head

    • Equineplay2003

      Wrong again BI. Go to his barn and see how his horses are cared for. I’m a fan of the sport and have found Doug to be total approachable unlike some of the uptight, full of themselves establishment.
      It is time for the negative post to stop. We all agree that horse racing can use some better regulation but not at the cost of destroying the sport.
      Your continued assault on this trainer is the only PR hype going on here.

  • Barry Irwin

    As good a job as Doug O’Neill has done in training I’ll Have Another–and make no mistake he has done a superb job–it pales in comparison to the damage control designed and carried out by his PR chief, which includes rapid fire posts on Paulick Report. One only has to click on the PR logo in the upper left hand corner to see how new and limited these posters are and the only logical conclusion is that they are hired hands. This same type of stunt is stock in trade for one of O’Neill’s biggest supporters, who probably is assisting in the PR campaign.

  • JC

    Feed, Lasix, milkshakes, dehydration, whatever–the trainers in this state know you have to stay below 37.  If you don’t, there’s a penalty.  And when someone has more violations, penalties, and breakdowns than everyone else, he/she will stick out like a sore thumb.  Add a case study to it like Burna Dette’s and it REALLY stinks. 

    There comes a time to stop trying to beat or manipulate the system(not to mention defending yourself in doing so) and simply clean up your act.  People will respect you for the latter, not the former. 

  • Barry Irwin

    44,000 to 1

  • JC

    Feed, Lasix, milkshakes, dehydration, whatever–the trainers in this state know you have to stay below 37.  If you don’t, there’s a penalty.  And when someone has more violations, penalties, and breakdowns than everyone else, he/she will stick out like a sore thumb.  Add a case study to it like Burna Dette’s and it REALLY stinks. 

    There comes a time to stop trying to beat or manipulate the system(not to mention defending yourself in doing so) and simply clean up your act.  People will respect you for the latter, not the former. 

  • Barry Irwin

    44,000 to 1

  • Robertslack

    This is more insanity from the California Stewards, but if they are really looking for something, I am sure there is something in their rules about trainers growing a beard during the Triple Crown!

    • Larry Ensor

      I am neither a O’Neill detractor nor supporter. The ruling makes perfect sense to me, fair and balanced if read carefully. I am a believer in the Gibb’s (NCIS) rule, don’t believe coincident. Especially more then 2 at a time.

  • Robertslack

    This is more insanity from the California Stewards, but if they are really looking for something, I am sure there is something in their rules about trainers growing a beard during the Triple Crown!

  • RayPaulick

     You are correct that the Hearing Officer was in error in his report, according to a spokesman for CHRB. The Lasix was administered four hours out, and blood was drawn for testing at 40 minutes to post. The story has been corrected to reflect that.

  • Barry Irwin

    Rather than relying on hearsay, read the report yourself

    http://www.chrb.ca.gov/Board/board_decisions/Decision_DO_12_05_24.pdf

    • Lisa Wintermote

      Barry,
      Thank you for this link. Lisa

  • Barry Irwin

    Rather than relying on hearsay, read the report yourself

    http://www.chrb.ca.gov/Board/b

  • Barry Irwin

    Tammy 37 and Jerry have 3 total Paulick Report posts between them!

  • Figless

    So his use of otherwise legal training methods, combined with shipping on an extremely hot day (how many other horses running that day shipped?) resulted in an overage, so he must be banned for life according to some? The law is the law, and he is being held responsible under the responsibility rule, but a fair review of the evidence points to an accidental overage, and against an intentional “milkshake”, so can we please accept the findings for what they are instead of blowing it out of proportion.An no I have never met Mr. ONeill and am not part of some media campaign, just someone who is seeking the truth.

    • Barry Irwin

      You want the truth? YOU WANT THE TRUTH? You can see if you handle the truth by reading the entire report and coming to informed decision.

      • Figless

        I read the ENTIRE report (thanks for providing) and frankly my decision is way more “informed” than your biased repeated assertion that the horse was “milkshaked”, which the report clearly, IN BOLD, stresses was not the case. You are the one repeating a LIE that he milkshaked the horse. The report simply finds him responsible under the trainer responsibility rule and properly penalizes him. It also clearly states he has NO Class 1 or Class 2 violations, the most serious kind, in 16 years. I AM seeking TRUTH, as opposed to the spin posted by you and many on this blog accusing him of cheating, and there is no evidence he did anything ILLEGAL as is being spinned to the detriment of our beloved sport by the media. The TRUTH is he now has 4 TCO2 violations including this one and the report itself indicates there may have been mitigating circumstance (shipping in extreme heat, amount of Lasix administered) on this particular date. If this was tried in front of a jury does anyone not believe they would find reasonable doubt? I find it distasteful that so many are willing to frame a trainer as an obvious repeated cheater based on such flimsy evidence. Our wrath should be reserved for those clearly, intentionally, administering illegal Class 1 substances, in fact it should be pointed at those who on a daily basis inject joints and such which is far more harmful to a racehorse and effects performance way more than any increased TC02 level ever could.

        • Larry Ensor

          Figless, I can understand why you would think Milkshaking a horse is the lesser of two evils but I suggest you read up on the effects manipulating a horse’s pH buffering system. There are therapeutic reasons for giving a horse a “milk shake” but it is not done right before a race. I have my reservations on the accuracy and or method and the blanket TOC2 base line. From what I have read the method of testing is subjective and environment issues that may play a role are not taken into account. But this too is not been proven absolute. From what I have read and educated myself on the topic, IMO the rules gives plenty of “wiggle” room. As a life long athlete I have a pretty good understanding of the biochemical science. For the record I have never “Milkshaked” a horse. I do know that it is and can be very tricky to get right. And does not take much to “over dose”. Trainers utilizing this do not have the proper testing equipment. Instead they have to use “general” guidelines which can be found on the internet or training manuals (human). Trial and error.
          The ruling states;
          Imhoff pointed out in his decision that Rule 1843.6, applicable to the case, does not say “manipulation” of TCO2 levels is illegal, only that testing above the 37.0 threshold is.

          Again if you understood the nasty consequences of not getting it “right” and the harm that can come to horse and rider/s the rule is more then fair. And IMO so was the ruling against Mr. O’Neill.
          Your argument that the facts would not hold up in Court maybe true. But the fact that the vast majority of horses experiencing the same conditions never test over the base limit and O’Neill’s horses did for reasons stated doesn’t pass the sniff test with reasonable and practical thinking people.

    • stillriledup

       We don’t want him banned for life, we just want a confesssion. We want him to confess that he has, in the past, intentionally used banned substances in his racehorses. Once he apologizes and admits he did this on purpose, we can start the healing process. He got caught, stop denying it. Many of us were born at night, but few were born last night.

      If this was one horse, one isolated incident than i would be willing to say that it could have been accidental. But, when you are a multiple repeat offender, its much harder to ‘sell’ that this was accidental.

      • Figless

        There is no evidence in this report indicating he has intentionally used banned substances, in fact the report indicates otherwise. Take Mr. Irwins suggestion and read the report.

  • Figless

    So his use of otherwise legal training methods, combined with shipping on an extremely hot day (how many other horses running that day shipped?) resulted in an overage, so he must be banned for life according to some? The law is the law, and he is being held responsible under the responsibility rule, but a fair review of the evidence points to an accidental overage, and against an intentional “milkshake”, so can we please accept the findings for what they are instead of blowing it out of proportion.An no I have never met Mr. ONeill and am not part of some media campaign, just someone who is seeking the truth.

  • Nick Kling

    Ray,

    Where is Chuck Barris when we really need him?

    • Don Reed

      Nick: We haven’t seen Chuck around, lately.  You don’t suppose that he’s the author of some of these PR puff posts?

      • Barry Irwin

        No, Chuck is too busy being a spy for the CIA.

  • Nick Kling

    Ray,

    Where is Chuck Barris when we really need him?

  • Barry Irwin

    You want the truth? YOU WANT THE TRUTH? You can see if you handle the truth by reading the entire report and coming to informed decision.

  • Mparrish11

    barry.. your immature. act your age, and go rain on someone elses parade. I know losing is tough enough with ‘Went the Day Well’, but please stop trying to bring everyone else down with you.

  • stillriledup

     We don’t want him banned for life, we just want a confesssion. We want him to confess that he has, in the past, intentionally used banned substances in his racehorses. Once he apologizes and admits he did this on purpose, we can start the healing process. He got caught, stop denying it. Many of us were born at night, but few were born last night.

    If this was one horse, one isolated incident than i would be willing to say that it could have been accidental. But, when you are a multiple repeat offender, its much harder to ‘sell’ that this was accidental.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Barry,
    I know that you are very opinionated and speak your mind even when you seemingly peed on your own parade last year. But last year when you had the limelight you choose to go negative and this year you have had a negative campaign against Doug O’Neill even being so low as to calling him a sociopath. You seem to believe that everyone lies except maybe you. Has Doug done you wrong in some way to cause you to be so negative, if so please elaborate. Many here have a different opinion, and we are entitled to do so, when we read this explanation of the high TCO2 but you seem to be like a dog with a bone that you just won’t give up and it seems VERY personal. I believe that the fact that Doug had the three highest readings on that particular day is even more proof that something is wrong with the testing and the fact that milk shaking was proven not to be used should be of concern. The hearing officer had all natural or environmental explanations but certainly none that indicates the Doug did anything wrong. Did he blow out all 3 horses 1/8 of a mile that morning? Did all 3 horses ship to Del Mar that hot morning? Did all 3 horses receive 10cc of lasix? If any or all of these things were done thereby causing a high TCO2 reading does he deserve this treatment? You like others have chosen to hang him and I’m sure nothing will ever change your mind. I like others just do not see the proof that anything illegal was done. There is also one other explanation and that is you like others are always looking at things negatively and we simply are looking for positives. I say it’s the negative minded people that are tearing this sport apart. 

    • Charlie Davis

      His horses tested as the top 3 of the day and you think it makes him appear innocent?  It shows that he has a very good way of upping TCO2 yet he only went over the limit on one horse.  It shows that he’s damn good at manipulating those levels, and he messed up once(or should I say once on that day).

    • Tinky

      “I say it’s the negative minded people that are tearing this sport apart.”

      Right. Nothing whatsoever to do with a lack of centralized authority, takeout rates that push billions of dollars to more attractively priced forms of gambling, breeding to sell, rather than to race, yearlings sold fraudulently having undergone “corrective” surgery, groping desperately for subsidies from a competing industry, cheating trainers, etc.

      Presumably it’s the “negative minded people” who are preventing the American economy from rebounding as well, right James?

    • stillriledup

       JDJ,

      I think you are not seeing the big picture here. Its fairly obvious that you have some affiliation with Doug and his camp, nobody defends a person who APPEARS to be a cheater unless they’re really emotionally invested in those people.

      Here’s what you need to understand.

      Horse bettors and horse racing fans don’t really care about all the minutaie and hair splitting. Whether Doug is guilty, innocent or somewhere in between, all players care about is clean races. We, as an industry need clean races. Its all we have. If the PERCEPTION is that the races are not clean, the game goes down the tubes.

      With the explosion of social media and media in general, a lot of this stuff is coming to light. Its now exposed and everyone in the game, including you, should be ‘on board’ with the idea of cleaning up the game.

      If Doug is innocent and all his ‘overages’ just happened to be honest mistakes, its not acceptable. He needs to do a much better job at making sure his horses don’t test over limits. None of this “oops, sorry, i dont know what happened” is not good enough anymore.

      Bettors want to be investing on clean races, we need these trainers to be much more vigilant in making sure that this stuff never happens. There’s too much riding on it.

      Innocent or guilty, Doug needs to find a way to not have this happen, bettors arent interested in excuses, they’re interested in clean racing and Doug hasnt provided that for them all the time.

      • James D. Jimenez

        stillriledup,
        You state your case very well, and I will agree with you!

        • stillriledup

           Thanks, appreciate that.

    • Barry Irwin

      Nice try pal, but I am not stoopid enough to be drawn into your trap. This isn’t about me, it’s about TCO2. I have nothing personal against Doug O’Neil, but I have a long history of writing and speaking out about cheating in horse racing that predates the entrance into our sport of Doug O’Neill. When people cheat, it invalidates, cheapens and trashes my way of life. Anybody that spends their waking hours in the pursuit of developing winning Thoroughbreds wants to have a clean sport. I crave a clean sport and will always write and speak out against those that have robbed competitors of their best chance to excel.

      Through my writings I have personally exacted change in the way our sport is conducted. This is not about my ego. It is about bringing a sharp light to bear on practices that bring down our sport.

      For a third of a century I have written and spoken out against cheating. I have butted heads with The Establishment and cheaters. I know how my bright light has brought about change.

      That is why I choose to write and speak up. I seek positive change.

      And that is why I put up a $25,000 first prize for an award for the best investigative piece of journalism this year named after the most courageous writer of the last few decades, the late Stan Bergstein.

      • James D. Jimenez

        There was no trap intended. Admire some of the things you have done, others not so much.

        • stillriledup

           JDJ, while Barry can be abrasive at times and speaks his mind and is very blunt (which can rub some people the wrong way) the bottom line remins that he’s one of very few owners who actually has spoken up about these cheating issues. Most owners hide in the bushes and just keep their nose out of things, but Barry is out there swinging for the fences, we need more owners like him in the game who are fighting for positive change.

          • James D. Jimenez

            And those are the things I admire. The others not so much are also very obvious. 

            Accusing me of being part of some sort of PR ploy by anyone, as well as calling someone he doesn’t know honey in an insulting manner will also be added to the list of not so much!

            You can definitely see that there’s a group here that constantly pat each other on the back, like each others post, and wouldn’t dare comment against each other. 

            I do not belong to that group so they attack and try to insult me. I’m a big boy and can stand my ground. 

            Barry and others have a right to carry their banner and express their thoughts. When I express mine I’m attacked by a crowd. And now new people are starting to speak up and what happens? The big group of guard dogs attack, each taking their bite at fresh meat.

            It’s very obvious that there is an agenda here and it’s not mine.

          • James D. Jimenez

            stillriledup,
            You and I have had a few back and forth post. Have you ever thought that you were talking to more than one single person?

          • James D. Jimenez

            Let me give you a perfect example. Barry blasts people that disagree with him that only have a couple of post. 

            But above, Ssk12955, calls me a PR shill and then likes one of Barry’s post and not a word about that person only having 4 post to their name.

      • stillriledup

        Racing misses Stan Bergstein no doubt, they don’t make em like that anymore.

      • http://Bellwether4u.com James Staples

        untill they pass out JAIL TIME & LIFE TIME BANS FORE CHEATERS/REPETERS this BS will NEVER STOP…PERIOD…ty…

      • hip703

        Barry Irwin,

        Please get over yourself.  There is not one shred of evidence that I’ll Have Another was given performance-enhancing drugs, as you imply in your ongoing campaign against O’Neill.  I am not an O’Neill fan, and was angry with him about the Burna Dette incident at Los Alamitos two years ago.  But your incessant cheap shots, and those of others, has led me to develop an empathy for the man.

        So please be clear: are you suggesting that O’Neill has given I’ll Have Another performance-enhancing drugs?  If not, what is the point of all of your blathering?

        I’ll Have Another is a great story, and great for the sport.  Too bad the story has to be sullied by bitter individuals such as yourself.

    • Ssk12955

      PR shill

  • James D. Jimenez

    Barry,
    I know that you are very opinionated and speak your mind even when you seemingly peed on your own parade last year. But last year when you had the limelight you choose to go negative and this year you have had a negative campaign against Doug O’Neill even being so low as to calling him a sociopath. You seem to believe that everyone lies except maybe you. Has Doug done you wrong in some way to cause you to be so negative, if so please elaborate. Many here have a different opinion, and we are entitled to do so, when we read this explanation of the high TCO2 but you seem to be like a dog with a bone that you just won’t give up and it seems VERY personal. I believe that the fact that Doug had the three highest readings on that particular day is even more proof that something is wrong with the testing and the fact that milk shaking was proven not to be used should be of concern. The hearing officer had all natural or environmental explanations but certainly none that indicates the Doug did anything wrong. Did he blow out all 3 horses 1/8 of a mile that morning? Did all 3 horses ship to Del Mar that hot morning? Did all 3 horses receive 10cc of lasix? If any or all of these things were done thereby causing a high TCO2 reading does he deserve this treatment? You like others have chosen to hang him and I’m sure nothing will ever change your mind. I like others just do not see the proof that anything illegal was done. There is also one other explanation and that is you like others are always looking at things negatively and we simply are looking for positives. I say it’s the negative minded people that are tearing this sport apart. 

  • Lost In The Fog

    Yes Barry you nailed it and it is obvious from looking at the total number of posts related to some of the first commenters on this story.  The only logical conclusion is the one you suggest.  This is standard practice with PR firms who specialize in damage control for personalities and major corporations.  They monitor websites and social media like hawks and have paid commenters who jump on anything related to their client and try to spin the conversation in a positive direction as quickly as possible.

  • Spin it

    The key to this A.L.C.’s comments about this not being a “milkshake” case is that the level of Sodium was not especially high . That can fall in a rather large range described as normal. There are many other Carbonates that are bonded with elements other than Sodium. Like Potassium Carbonate. Like Magnesium Carbonate. Hence the normal Sodium level is really a non starter 
      The fact that all 3 of his horses tested high that day is no surprise. It’s been known since testing began in CA. that all his (and a few others) horses test close to the legal limit consistently. A year of warnings sharpened the aim. Over a year of “House Rule” until the CHRB passed the TCO2 rule, where trainers runners were placed in observation stalls. We aren’t even counting his several transgressions at that stage in the 4 rulings we talk about.
     But this was never about illegal, harmful drugs. It was a natural way to cheat. 

  • Spin it

    The key to this A.L.C.’s comments about this not being a “milkshake” case is that the level of Sodium was not especially high . That can fall in a rather large range described as normal. There are many other Carbonates that are bonded with elements other than Sodium. Like Potassium Carbonate. Like Magnesium Carbonate. Hence the normal Sodium level is really a non starter 
      The fact that all 3 of his horses tested high that day is no surprise. It’s been known since testing began in CA. that all his (and a few others) horses test close to the legal limit consistently. A year of warnings sharpened the aim. Over a year of “House Rule” until the CHRB passed the TCO2 rule, where trainers runners were placed in observation stalls. We aren’t even counting his several transgressions at that stage in the 4 rulings we talk about.
     But this was never about illegal, harmful drugs. It was a natural way to cheat. 

  • McGov

    Only in America.

  • Arazi

    44664 to 1.
    End of the story,complete joke!
    Fourth milkshake violations!

  • Arazi

    44664 to 1.
    End of the story,complete joke!
    Fourth milkshake violations!

  • Charlie Davis

    His horses tested as the top 3 of the day and you think it makes him appear innocent?  It shows that he has a very good way of upping TCO2 yet he only went over the limit on one horse.  It shows that he’s damn good at manipulating those levels, and he messed up once(or should I say once on that day).

  • Rufusous

    He wasn’t referred to as “Drug” O’Neill for no reason, was he?

  • Tinky

    “I say it’s the negative minded people that are tearing this sport apart.”

    Right. Nothing whatsoever to do with a lack of centralized authority, takeout rates that push billions of dollars to more attractively priced forms of gambling, breeding to sell, rather than to race, yearlings sold fraudulently having undergone “corrective” surgery, groping desperately for subsidies from a competing industry, cheating trainers, etc.

    Presumably it’s the “negative minded people” who are preventing the American economy from rebounding as well, right James?

  • Anne

    There has clearly been a change since the first of the week and I’ve notices Mr. Jimenez grammar has vastly improved…sentence structure etc. Maybe he finally found some horses to shoe?

  • Don Reed

    This legal hearing process has gotten so ridiculous, the next step is hoisting a live electronic tote board behind the U.S. Supreme Court bench.

    • tfly

      No Don, not behind the bench.  Do like the tracks do and put the giant screen in front of the bench.  Track’s new PR slogan- “come and watch the races live on tv.”

  • Tammy37

    is there a minimum amount of posts we are allowed on oneil. i must have missed that in the paulick rules.

  • Don Reed

    This legal hearing process has gotten so ridiculous, the next step is hoisting a live electronic tote board behind the U.S. Supreme Court bench.

  • Anne

    “rain on someone elses parade”…eerily similar to James D. Jimenez previous post of “peed on your own parade”. Things that make you go “hmmm”…I think I smell a PR firm! After all, Mr. Cash Call is clearly slick as they come.

  • Don Reed

    When someone who claims to be working in a racing barn -

    A) Has the time to be sending in multiple postings which -

    B) Feature complete sentences and other hallmarks of a level of education rarely attained by embers of the racing community…

    How long could this scam have gone unnoticed?

    Reminds me of the German spies in American uniforms during the Battle of the Bulge (WWII) who pulled into a Belgian gas depot driving a captured U.S. jeep and told the G.I. pumping the gas, “Petrol, please.”

    They were shot.

  • voiceofreason

    44,664 to one. So you’re telling me there’s a chance!

  • voiceofreason

    44,664 to one. So you’re telling me there’s a chance!

  • RayPaulick

    A reminder to readers wishing to comment. Using multiple names from the same IP address will result in that IP address being blocked from commenting.

    • Stevewonder

      Ah I see….a few racing fans getting together handicapping together and passing one macair using different names to comment or just typing guest…..we were wondering why we were getting banned….it’s ok….no big deal

      • Lisa Wintermote

        Best joke I’ve heard all week! In case you haven’t noticed, Rays Mama didn’t raise any fools and neither did mine! I sometimes use my blackberry, sometimes my laptop, other times it’s my home comp and most often it’s my iPad….. Yet a whole group of you have only the one device amongst you?? Puhleeze! AND, I’m the always optimistic, positive one on here! Lol!

        • Stevewonder

           I can tell somebody who does not go to a racetrack or just a loner at home….you think a bunch of dudes sitting on one table all have laptops and just loves to comment away all day….HAHAHAHAHAHA….we all have our DRF looking at races….and during boring lulls we post comments on different sites …..not just rays site….Rays mama did not  raise any fool…..but some were….

          • Lisa Wintermote

            Stevewonder, I wouldd like to apologize for that post. It was totally snotty and unnecessary. My 6lb dog ruptured a disc in his back yesterday and after a long day at the vets I was still up with him at 1:30am. I shouldn’t have taken it out on you and I’m sorry I was so unkind. Lisa

          • James D. Jimenez

            Now that shows class! 

            Hope your dog gets better soon.

          • Lisa Wintermote

            Thank you! It’s going to be a long road.

          • James D. Jimenez

            Can I ask what happened to him?

          • Lisa Wintermote

            Hes 11 and a papillon. He was fine when he took a nap. When he woke up he couldn’t control his hindquarters at all. He was in awful pain as well. I rushed him to his Dr and after X-rays and an MRI they determined that he has a ruptured disc and another in jeopardy. He also has arthritis in his spine but that is secondary at this time. He’s on dex, amatidine, and Pepcid right now to relieve pressure on his spinal cord. Probably is going to need surgery but he is very intolerant of anesthesia, even sevoflourane, so it’s a catch 22. I’m open to advise from anyone who has knowledge of this type of injury. Thank you for asking. [email protected]

          • James D. Jimenez

            Will send good thoughts your way.

          • Barry Irwin

            Must be another slow day around the O’Neill barn, huh?

          • Lisa Wintermote

            Barry, I’ve never, not once, said an unkind word about you. Ever! I agree with you on many issues and I think you’re on the right track when it comes to promoting racing as a sport rather than a business. I do not know Mr. Jimenez but what he did here was offer me a kind word at a very difficult time for me. I left my email address because I think a canine discussion needs to move off the PR but I am totally surprised at your callousness. You might want to leave your mantle of cynicism on a shelf from time to time. Lisa

          • Larry Ensor

            Lisa, having had to let go of my Jack Russell recently of 19 years I understand your sensitivity. Reading you post hit home. But I took Barry’s comment more as something to “lighten” the moment and it did for me. I am not ashamed to say it made me chuckle. Hope things work out.

          • Lisa Wintermote

            Larry, you have my most sincere condolences on your recent loss. I’m researching dog wheelchairs at the moment. I’ll keep fighting until he doesn’t want to. Thank you for your thoughts. Lisa

          • Gaited Filly

            I was just thinking the same about you. Bored?

          • Bourbon Gal

            Lisa,

            I’ve got a dog who gets acupuncture to control back pain and it has worked wonders. He was on water therapy, painkillers, muscle relaxers and various joint supplements but the acupuncture has been the best treatment by far. He no longer takes any drugs. He also sees a chiropractor who is also a holistic vet. See if there are any Chi Institute holistic vets in your area. I am a believer. Good luck. You have my greatest sympathy. I am a Dog Mom first and foremost.

          • Lisa Wintermote

            Bourbon Gal,
            Thank you! He sees Dr Zie @ the UofF for acupuncture when we’re in FL do you know of someone near here (Woodford Co)? I left my email address above. I use only holistic food as it is and my vet is very open to holistic therapies. Any help is greatly appreciated! Lisa

      • Barry Irwin

        Steve Wonder (Boy), interestingly, there once was a horse named, of all things, Stevie Wonderboy, who not so coincidentally was trained by a Mr. Douglas O’Neill.

        Steve, you might want to tell your pals that the first rule in writing a story is that is must be plausible. Your little scenario lacks plausibility.

        Kind of like when a horseman mention’s that they never heard of milkshaking and had to look it up on Google to find out what it was.

        I am not guessing when I mention that Mr. O’Neill has hired a PR person. I met that person and this person previously did damage control for one of Mr. O’Neill’s peers, a lad named Mr. Jeff Mullins.

  • Don Reed

    Nick: We haven’t seen Chuck around, lately.  You don’t suppose that he’s the author of some of these PR puff posts?

  • Tbellasis

    What I don’t understand is that if all three of his horses were over the 37.0 level, why was he not accountable for each individual case.  Were all three treated as one case? If this had happened to a small outfit that trainer would had been lead out the stable gate.

    • RayPaulick

       That’s a really good question and I’ll try to answer it as clearly as possible, but it’s a bit confusing.

      It is explained in the full report under the heading: TCO2 Test at the Maddy Lab (bottom of page 14 of the Decision/it’s document page 17 on our link).

      When TCO2 tests are over 36.0, the testing equipment is recalibrated for accuracy, and the sample is divided into four parts for retesting. Each of the four parts is then tested two times for a total of eight tests. If one or more of those eight individual tests comes in at 37.0 or below (after subtracting the “level of uncertainty”), a complaint cannot be filed. In the case of Argenta, all eight tests were above 37.0, and the number put on the complaint was the average of the eight tests.

      In the case of the other two O’Neill horses that tested at an average above 37.0 on Aug. 25, 2010, it is my understanding there was a minimum of one of the eight test scores that was 37.0 or below.

      I hope this helps.

      • James D. Jimenez

        Ray,
        Thanks for that explanation, makes sense.

      • Tres Abagados Stupidos

        FYI…Keep your eyes and ears open for news coming out of Oklahoma.  Will make this milk-shake thing look like a day on the beach. 

      • May Flower

        If the CHRB decided to raise the permitted TCO2 level to 40.0 would horses trained by the usual suspects frequently test at 38.0 and 39.0.?

    • Barry Irwin

      Wondered the exact same thing.

      • Larry Ensor

        Me too

  • Tbellasis

    What I don’t understand is that if all three of his horses were over the 37.0 level, why was he not accountable for each individual case.  Were all three treated as one case? If this had happened to a small outfit that trainer would had been lead out the stable gate.

  • stillriledup

     JDJ,

    I think you are not seeing the big picture here. Its fairly obvious that you have some affiliation with Doug and his camp, nobody defends a person who APPEARS to be a cheater unless they’re really emotionally invested in those people.

    Here’s what you need to understand.

    Horse bettors and horse racing fans don’t really care about all the minutaie and hair splitting. Whether Doug is guilty, innocent or somewhere in between, all players care about is clean races. We, as an industry need clean races. Its all we have. If the PERCEPTION is that the races are not clean, the game goes down the tubes.

    With the explosion of social media and media in general, a lot of this stuff is coming to light. Its now exposed and everyone in the game, including you, should be ‘on board’ with the idea of cleaning up the game.

    If Doug is innocent and all his ‘overages’ just happened to be honest mistakes, its not acceptable. He needs to do a much better job at making sure his horses don’t test over limits. None of this “oops, sorry, i dont know what happened” is not good enough anymore.

    Bettors want to be investing on clean races, we need these trainers to be much more vigilant in making sure that this stuff never happens. There’s too much riding on it.

    Innocent or guilty, Doug needs to find a way to not have this happen, bettors arent interested in excuses, they’re interested in clean racing and Doug hasnt provided that for them all the time.

  • RayPaulick

     That’s a really good question and I’ll try to answer it as clearly as possible, but it’s a bit confusing.

    It is explained in the full report under the heading: TCO2 Test at the Maddy Lab (bottom of page 14 of the Decision/it’s document page 17 on our link).

    When TCO2 tests are over 36.0, the testing equipment is recalibrated for accuracy, and the sample is divided into four parts for retesting. Each of the four parts is then tested two times for a total of eight tests. If one or more of those eight individual tests comes in at 37.0 or below (after subtracting the “level of uncertainty”), a complaint cannot be filed. In the case of Argenta, all eight tests were above 37.0, and the number put on the complaint was the average of the eight tests.

    In the case of the other two O’Neill horses that tested at an average above 37.0 on Aug. 25, 2010, it is my understanding there was a minimum of one of the eight test scores that was 37.0 or below.

    I hope this helps.

  • RayPaulick

     The Hearing Officer report incorrectly stated the Lasix was given 40 minutes. That was when the pre-race sample was taken. The Lasix was administered approximately four hours out.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Ray,
    Thanks for that explanation, makes sense.

  • Tres Abagados Stupidos

    FYI…Keep your eyes and ears open for news coming out of Oklahoma.  Will make this milk-shake thing look like a day on the beach. 

  • James D. Jimenez

    stillriledup,
    You state your case very well, and I will agree with you!

  • Barry Irwin

    This is this guy’s first and only post. Put up job. Nice try jerk.

  • Barry Irwin

    Honey, you missed way more than the rules, you missed common sense somewhere along the way. And for this you get paid?

  • Barry Irwin

    No, Chuck is too busy being a spy for the CIA.

  • Barry Irwin

    Wondered the exact same thing.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Barry,
    Thank you for this link. Lisa

  • stillriledup

     Thanks, appreciate that.

  • Barry Irwin

    Nice try pal, but I am not stoopid enough to be drawn into your trap. This isn’t about me, it’s about TCO2. I have nothing personal against Doug O’Neil, but I have a long history of writing and speaking out about cheating in horse racing that predates the entrance into our sport of Doug O’Neill. When people cheat, it invalidates, cheapens and trashes my way of life. Anybody that spends their waking hours in the pursuit of developing winning Thoroughbreds wants to have a clean sport. I crave a clean sport and will always write and speak out against those that have robbed competitors of their best chance to excel.

    Through my writings I have personally exacted change in the way our sport is conducted. This is not about my ego. It is about bringing a sharp light to bear on practices that bring down our sport.

    For a third of a century I have written and spoken out against cheating. I have butted heads with The Establishment and cheaters. I know how my bright light has brought about change.

    That is why I choose to write and speak up. I seek positive change.

    And that is why I put up a $25,000 first prize for an award for the best investigative piece of journalism this year named after the most courageous writer of the last few decades, the late Stan Bergstein.

  • Ssk12955

    I like it, Sherlock Irwin

  • Luigi Giovanni

    Kelly Weitsma claims to be O’Neill’s representative:

    <style type=”text/css”>.ditto208408396716707840 {background: #131516 url(http://a0.twimg.com/profile_ba… no-repeat;padding: 20px;}.ditto208408396716707840 a {color: #009999;}p.dittoTweet {background: #fff;padding: 10px 12px 10px 50px;margin: 0;min-height: 48px;color: #000;font-size: 22px !important;font-family: Georgia, “Times New Roman”, Times, serif;line-height: 30px;-moz-border-radius: 5px;-webkit-border-radius: 5px;}span.metadata {display: block;width: 100%;clear: both;margin-top: 8px;padding: 12px 0px;height: 65px;}span.metadata span.author {line-height: 20px;color: #333;font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;}.tweet {font-size: 24px;}span.metadata span.author img {float: left;margin: 0px 7px 0px 0px;}a:hover {text-decoration: underline;}span.timestamp {font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 12px;display: block;color: #999;margin: 10px 0 0 0;line-height: 25px;}span.timestamp a {color: #999;text-decoration: none;}span.timestamp a > span {display: inline-block;width: 16px;background-image: url(http://images.ientrymail.com/s… no-repeat;}span.timestamp a.twitreply > span {background-position: 0px 3px;}span.timestamp a.twitreply:hover > span {background-position: -16px 3px;}span.timestamp a.favorite > span {background-position: -32px 2px;}span.timestamp a.favorite:hover > span {background-position: -48px 2px;}span.timestamp a.retweet > span {background-position: -80px 3px;}span.timestamp a.retweet:hover > span {background-position: -96px 3px;}p.indent {margin-left: 20px;}.at-name a, .at-name a:visited, .at-name a:hover {color: #999;text-decoration: none;font-size: 14px;font-weight: normal;}.dittodownarrow {width: 0;height: 0;border-left: 20px solid transparent;border-right: 20px solid transparent;border-top: 20px solid #EEE;margin: 0 0 0 73px;}</style><script>!function(d,s,id){var js,fjs=d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0];if(!d.getElementById(id)){js=d.createElement(s);js.id=id;js.src=”//platform.twitter.com/widgets.j…“;fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js,fjs);}}(document,”script”,”twitter-wjs”);</script><div class=”ditto208408396716707840″>

    BTW… @JasonShandler you need to get your ass at the Belmont this year!!! I’ve repped last 3 contenders. This one’s gonna win!!!!!!!!!!
    23 hours ago via web · powered by @socialditto
     Reply  · Retweet  · Favorite

    </div>

  • Ssk12955

    PR shill

  • James D. Jimenez

    There was no trap intended. Admire some of the things you have done, others not so much.

  • Luigi Giovanni
  • James D. Jimenez

    Anne, 
    If this and Don Reed’s above reply are about me then I’m truly honored. 

    Don, we aren’t uneducated on the racetrack and today’s farriers are pretty sharp if I do say so myself. 

    Anne, plenty of horses to shoe. If you would you ever care to visit the backside please do not hesitate to ask. It would be my pleasure.

  • stillriledup

    Racing misses Stan Bergstein no doubt, they don’t make em like that anymore.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Just me, one single person. You really shouldn’t make these type of statements without proof of which you have none.

    And about that comment: I as many in the racing world was absolutely shocked when the words came out of Barry’s mouth after just winning what many consider the most important race in the world, or at least the U.S. Just seemed as though there was an agenda! Like I said below, I’ve admired some of the things Barry has done for the sport, others not so much. Just my opinion and maybe not yours, no big deal.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Just me, one single person. You really shouldn’t make these type of statements without proof of which you have none.
    And about that comment: I as many in the racing world was absolutely shocked when the words came out of Barry’s mouth after just winning what many consider the most important race in the world, or at least the U.S. Just seemed as though there was an agenda! Like I said below, I’ve admired some of the things Barry has done for the sport, others not so much. Just my opinion and maybe not yours, no big deal.
    This Disqus is getting crazy, you never know where your post is going to show up, lol.

  • stillriledup

     JDJ, while Barry can be abrasive at times and speaks his mind and is very blunt (which can rub some people the wrong way) the bottom line remins that he’s one of very few owners who actually has spoken up about these cheating issues. Most owners hide in the bushes and just keep their nose out of things, but Barry is out there swinging for the fences, we need more owners like him in the game who are fighting for positive change.

  • Stevewonder

    Ah I see….a few racing fans getting together handicapping together and passing one macair using different names to comment or just typing guest…..we were wondering why we were getting banned….it’s ok….no big deal

  • James D. Jimenez

    And those are the things I admire. The others not so much are also very obvious. 

    Accusing me of being part of some sort of PR ploy by anyone, as well as calling someone he doesn’t know honey in an insulting manner will also be added to the list of not so much!

    You can definitely see that there’s a group here that constantly pat each other on the back, like each others post, and wouldn’t dare comment against each other. 

    I do not belong to that group so they attack and try to insult me. I’m a big boy and can stand my ground. 

    Barry and others have a right to carry their banner and express their thoughts. When I express mine I’m attacked by a crowd. And now new people are starting to speak up and what happens? The big group of guard dogs attack, each taking their bite at fresh meat.

    It’s very obvious that there is an agenda here and it’s not mine.

  • James D. Jimenez

    stillriledup,
    You and I have had a few back and forth post. Have you ever thought that you were talking to more than one single person?

  • James D. Jimenez

    Let me give you a perfect example. Barry blasts people that disagree with him that only have a couple of post. 

    But above, Ssk12955, calls me a PR shill and then likes one of Barry’s post and not a word about that person only having 4 post to their name.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Best joke I’ve heard all week! In case you haven’t noticed, Rays Mama didn’t raise any fools and neither did mine! I sometimes use my blackberry, sometimes my laptop, other times it’s my home comp and most often it’s my iPad….. Yet a whole group of you have only the one device amongst you?? Puhleeze! AND, I’m the always optimistic, positive one on here! Lol!

  • http://Bellwether4u.com James Staples

    untill they pass out JAIL TIME & LIFE TIME BANS FORE CHEATERS/REPETERS this BS will NEVER STOP…PERIOD…

  • Stevewonder

     I can tell somebody who does not go to a racetrack or just a loner at home….you think a bunch of dudes sitting on one table all have laptops and just loves to comment away all day….HAHAHAHAHAHA….we all have our DRF looking at races….and during boring lulls we post comments on different sites …..not just rays site….Rays mama did not  raise any fool…..but some were….

  • http://Bellwether4u.com James Staples

    Untill the powers that BEE pass out JAIL TIME & LIFE TIME BANS FORE CHEATERS/REPETERS this BS will never STOP…PERIOD…NOW GET OFF YOUR @SSES???…ty…

  • http://Bellwether4u.com James Staples

    Untill the powers that BEE pass out JAIL TIME & LIFE TIME BANS FORE CHEATERS/REPETERS this BS will never STOP…PERIOD…NOW GET OFF YOUR @SSES!!!…ty…

  • Gaited Filly

    So what does that mean?

  • hip703

    Looks like Barry Irwin had another.

  • tfly

    No Don, not behind the bench.  Do like the tracks do and put the giant screen in front of the bench.  Track’s new PR slogan- “come and watch the races live on tv.”

  • equine

    @ T Morrison, You bring up an interesting point. Elevated TCO2 levels related to management practices are illegal. Yet management practices intended to prevent EIPH such as withholding water, hay etc the the night prior to a race are not. In the year prior to legalization of lasix, horses were managed this way as well including reduction in feed in the days leading up to a race. It was commonly accepted that the “natural” dehydration reduced blood volume and blood pressure, and a reduction in body weight of as little as 25 lbs improved endurance because of a reduction in weight on the heart muscle. These are similar effects to the uae of legal

    • Jimculpepper

      Ms. Rarick mentions this in her post on this blog.  This whole hydration/bleeding curls my hair.  I race pigeons; any who need to be dehydrated prior to a distance race to prevent any disorder are culls by definition.

  • equine

    @ T Morrison, You bring up an interesting point. Elevated TCO2 levels related to management practices are illegal. Yet management practices intended to prevent EIPH such as withholding water, hay etc the the night prior to a race are not. In the year prior to legalization of lasix, horses were managed this way as well including reduction in feed in the days leading up to a race. It was commonly accepted that the “natural” dehydration reduced blood volume and blood pressure, and a reduction in body weight of as little as 25 lbs improved endurance because of a reduction in weight on the heart muscle. These are similar effects to the uae of legal

  • Jimculpepper

    “Embers” as in “firebrands” of the racing community, or “members” meaning you are as bad on a keyboard as I am?  Glad I am an outsider or your remark about  level of education would annoy me. I innocently stumbled into the study of thoroughbred pedigrees as an adjunct to my study of population genetics.  Strange how the originators of the breed were apparently much better educated about selective breeding than their spiritual descendants.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Stevewonder, I wouldd like to apologize for that post. It was totally snotty and unnecessary. My 6lb dog ruptured a disc in his back yesterday and after a long day at the vets I was still up with him at 1:30am. I shouldn’t have taken it out on you and I’m sorry I was so unkind. Lisa

  • equine

    Apologize, my mobile window cuts off and locks the text at the bottom.

    These are similar to the effects of legal lasix. In most jurisdictions you cannot legally make a change in lasix administration without notice to the wagering public.

    This is where wagering integrity comes into play in the large exotic pools. For example, a gambling trainer whose horse has a shot and is running for a $5purse, could manipulate the water and hay in the horse to essentially stop it in the barn. He makes his bet keying a couple horses, wheels the rest except for his horse because it reduces his total wager investment. He wins up cashing a ticket for 60K Now, if that horse was scheduled to run on legal lasicand was tested showing no lasix was administered the trainer would be caught. In no lasix countries, there would be no legal recourse.

    • Gaited Filly

      To Lobiebe and equine: There is a product called STORM which increases lactic acid buffering  with increased muscle carosine. From the way I read it this is a naturally naturally occurring substances in the horse. Reported to be legal & widely used in the UK. Here is a link to an article about it. The comment section below the article is the most interesting, bringing up the question if this should be made illegal.
      http://thoroedge.wordpress.com/storm/ 
      P.S. wonder if Coolmore uses it with Frankel?

      P.S. Here is another article on training methods (not drugs) that improve your horse’s ability to utilize the lactic acid for energy and delay onset of fatigue, flush the horse’s system of lactic acid and increase recovery. timehttp://thoroedge.wordpress.com/is-your-horse-fit/

      I’d say this whole issue is pretty complicated, needs research & needs well thought out rules and avoid knee jerk reactions.

      • Larry Ensor

        Frankel is owned and bred by Prince Khalid Abdullah, bred in the name of his Juddmonte Farm.

        • Gaited Filly

          Thank you for the correction. I knew his trainer but had a brain cramp on the farm. I would still like to know if it is used and exactly how widely it is used. Why is it legal there, or not considered a drug and what the results are with the horses.

      • James D. Jimenez

        I just read your first link and have a question. If this supplement really works wouldn’t there be an issue with a trainer using it and the horse running well and then not using it for a couple of races to establish poor form and adding it again for 6 weeks to produce an improved performance. 

        It seems that the major concern with anything that may work is the fact that it can then be removed from the horse and then added again to produce the desired results. This is why something like lasix must be used every time the horse runs after it is started to remove the suspicion factor.

        Sounds like legal/natural milk shake in the description of results.

        • Gaited Filly

          I re-read the article and did not see anything about removing it from the horse. Why do that? To set up a good betting scam??? it said it takes 4-6 wks to show the effects and the horse continues its use during training and racing. It might take time for a negative effect to show. I’m no scientist, just curious and trying to learn. It inhibits the formation of lactic acids like milkshakes but it works through the muscle system and not the blood. I need to read the link about it in the UK. Read the training method article, no performance enhancing substances, just doing the training in specific ways so it maximizes the horses natural ability to deal with lactic acid.

      • equine

        I recall back in the early-mid 1980s it was common here for horses to get vitamin jugs with amino acids in them the day before a race. The amino acids were so popular you could actually purchase them in the local farm supply stores and administer them yourself if you were stabled off track. Eventually their usage was prohibited. It became such a big issue with the tracks the farm stores stopped carrying the product. Did it actually help horses? IMO it gave a little bit of an edge to those who were fit, sound and placed right

        • equine

          So although the Storm may be a different amino acid with a different route of administration I would assume it would eventually be illegal in the U.S.

          • Jimculpepper

            Storm apparently is apparently beta-alanine, oral administration I presume.

  • equine

    Apologize, my mobile window cuts off and locks the text at the bottom.

    These are similar to the effects of legal lasix. In most jurisdictions you cannot legally make a change in lasix administration without notice to the wagering public.

    This is where wagering integrity comes into play in the large exotic pools. For example, a gambling trainer whose horse has a shot and is running for a $5purse, could manipulate the water and hay in the horse to essentially stop it in the barn. He makes his bet keying a couple horses, wheels the rest except for his horse because it reduces his total wager investment. He wins up cashing a ticket for 60K Now, if that horse was scheduled to run on legal lasicand was tested showing no lasix was administered the trainer would be caught. In no lasix countries, there would be no legal recourse.

  • Lobieb

    It only goes to show that there should be NO drugs in our horses.  If the Europeans can do it so can the Americans.  I know everyone wants to win races but for the sake of the horses they should not have to have all that crap in their systems.  You might see some good racing after that.

    • equine

      The only legal race day drug allowed in
      the majority of US jurisdictions is lasix, with select states allowing adjuvant meds. However in a fairly recent racing forum the use of the herb gelsemium as a homeopathic aid in the alleged prerace treatment of TB racehorses in Ireland is discussed. It is discussed in great detail including initial dosage, and repeat dosing at certain intervals until the symptoms of nervousness and anxiety visibly disappear. It’s intended to prevent a horse from washing out in the paddock & post parade. Are the allegations fact? I have absolutely no way of knowing. Nor do I know whether herbal and homeopathic products are routinely used in foreign countries, if there are tests for these natural remedies, or even if tests are available if they are regularly performed. Foreigners can make all sorts of claims re drugged U.S. horses but their definition of a bleeder is based upon a horse visibly bleeding from the nostril vs the much higher percentage of bleeders more accurately diagnosed by endoscopy. Thus, I question how they are defining drugs

  • Lobieb

    It only goes to show that there should be NO drugs in our horses.  If the Europeans can do it so can the Americans.  I know everyone wants to win races but for the sake of the horses they should not have to have all that crap in their systems.  You might see some good racing after that.

  • Jimculpepper

    Oh Wait! Do you mean that someone besides stallion managers and politicians  can make a serious wage merely by systematicaly  monitoring for statements of fact and then publishing falsehoods which contradict the real world?  I fear that those who call for permanent loss of privilege for repeaters  are spot on and should include owners.  New offenders should be fined a pecentage of gross earnings.  With BIG PHARMA running research programs larger than most nations GNP, new dope outside the test net will always be there for cheaters.  Only way to get rid of chemical dope is bar the human dopes. Contribute to the New Bolton Center and other research institutes who take care of the stock.  My favorite new dope is one that gives endurance to lab animals without exercise. Sound Familiar?

    • Gaited Filly

      This is so true about new pharmaceuticals in development. This would be transmitted by a device so small so small it could never be seen. Anyone out there know what this type of technology is called? 

      • Larry Ensor

        I believe that was first used in a James Bond movie with a horse at Royal Ascot. And that was years ago. Imagine what they can do now.

        • Gaited Filly

          Not sure if you are being sarcastic or joking, I later remembered it is called nano technology. 

          • Larry Ensor

            Just trying to lighten things. Your post reminded me of the seen from the movie and that was something like 30 years ago which seemed plausible at the time . So my point was just think what someone could do now if they were so inclined.

             

  • Jimculpepper

    Oh Wait! Do you mean that someone besides stallion managers and politicians  can make a serious wage merely by systematicaly  monitoring for statements of fact and then publishing falsehoods which contradict the real world?  I fear that those who call for permanent loss of privilege for repeaters  are spot on and should include owners.  New offenders should be fined a pecentage of gross earnings.  With BIG PHARMA running research programs larger than most nations GNP, new dope outside the test net will always be there for cheaters.  Only way to get rid of chemical dope is bar the human dopes. Contribute to the New Bolton Center and other research institutes who take care of the stock.  My favorite new dope is one that gives endurance to lab animals without exercise. Sound Familiar?

  • James D. Jimenez

    Now that shows class! 

    Hope your dog gets better soon.

  • Figless

    I read the ENTIRE report (thanks for providing) and frankly my decision is way more “informed” than your biased repeated assertion that the horse was “milkshaked”, which the report clearly, IN BOLD, stresses was not the case. You are the one repeating a LIE that he milkshaked the horse. The report simply finds him responsible under the trainer responsibility rule and properly penalizes him. It also clearly states he has NO Class 1 or Class 2 violations, the most serious kind, in 16 years. I AM seeking TRUTH, as opposed to the spin posted by you and many on this blog accusing him of cheating, and there is no evidence he did anything ILLEGAL as is being spinned to the detriment of our beloved sport by the media. The TRUTH is he now has 4 TCO2 violations including this one and the report itself indicates there may have been mitigating circumstance (shipping in extreme heat, amount of Lasix administered) on this particular date. If this was tried in front of a jury does anyone not believe they would find reasonable doubt? I find it distasteful that so many are willing to frame a trainer as an obvious repeated cheater based on such flimsy evidence. Our wrath should be reserved for those clearly, intentionally, administering illegal Class 1 substances, in fact it should be pointed at those who on a daily basis inject joints and such which is far more harmful to a racehorse and effects performance way more than any increased TC02 level ever could.

  • Figless

    There is no evidence in this report indicating he has intentionally used banned substances, in fact the report indicates otherwise. Take Mr. Irwins suggestion and read the report.

  • Rachel

    My Uncle was in the hell called the Battle of the Bulge…not sure how’d he’d feel you comparing hard working backstretch folks’ education levels, or any American for that matter, to Nazi spies trying to infiltrate and kill Allied troops…well, actually, knowing him like I did, I’m exactly sure how he’d feel…

  • Equineplay2003

    Wrong again BI. Go to his barn and see how his horses are cared for. I’m a fan of the sport and have found Doug to be total approachable unlike some of the uptight, full of themselves establishment.
    It is time for the negative post to stop. We all agree that horse racing can use some better regulation but not at the cost of destroying the sport.
    Your continued assault on this trainer is the only PR hype going on here.

  • Equineplay2003

    Yes and after you read that report go to Bloodhorse.com and read the whistleblowers story versus the corrupt CHRB…….

    • James D. Jimenez

      Actually this link will take people directly to the article where yours only directs to the Bloodhorse.

      http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/62861/chrb-whistle-blower-sues-agency
      This will of course now draw many negative comments from a certain controlled group of people here and we will be falsely accused of being part of a PR scheme. 

      Maybe a few people will read the article and search for more information but most are simply going to follow xxxxx xxxxx and his friends.

  • Equineplay2003

    Yes and after you read that report go to Bloodhorse.com and read the whistleblowers story versus the corrupt CHRB…….

  • Cass

     seems to me Barry Irwin has hit the nail on the head

  • James D. Jimenez

    Actually this link will take people directly to the article where yours only directs to the Bloodhorse.

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/hors
    This will of course now draw many negative comments from a certain controlled group of people here and we will be falsely accused of being part of a PR scheme. 

    Maybe a few people will read the article and search for more information but most are simply going to follow xxxxx xxxxx and his friends.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Thank you! It’s going to be a long road.

  • Cass

    If I am reading it correctly the report says that in Ohio tco2 levels were reduced to 0 from 17% after the new rule of 37mm level was introduced.  Similarly for other tracks in Ca.  This leads me to believe trainers can definately control tco2 levels if they think they may be reprimanded.   Is Doug Oneill unable to control it for some reason?  unless there is a time frame involved here that I have not looked into yet

  • Gaited Filly

    This is so true about new pharmaceuticals in development. This would be transmitted by a device so small so small it could never be seen. Anyone out there know what this type of technology is called? 

  • Gaited Filly

    To Lobiebe and equine: There is a product called STORM which increases lactic acid buffering  with increased muscle carosine. From the way I read it this is a naturally naturally occurring substances in the horse. Reported to be legal & widely used in the UK. Here is a link to an article about it. The comment section below the article is the most interesting, bringing up the question if this should be made illegal.
    http://thoroedge.wordpress.com… 
    P.S. wonder if Coolmore uses it with Frankel?

    P.S. Here is another article on training methods (not drugs) that improve your horse’s ability to utilize the lactic acid for energy and delay onset of fatigue, flush the horse’s system of lactic acid and increase recovery. timehttp://thoroedge.wordpress…

    I’d say this whole issue is pretty complicated, needs research & needs well thought out rules and avoid knee jerk reactions.

  • Larry Ensor

    I believe that was first used in a James Bond movie with a horse at Royal Ascot. And that was years ago. Imagine what they can do now.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Can I ask what happened to him?

  • Larry Ensor

    I am neither a O’Neill detractor nor supporter. The ruling makes perfect sense to me, fair and balanced if read carefully. I am a believer in the Gibb’s (NCIS) rule, don’t believe coincident. Especially more then 2 at a time.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Rachel,
    A salute to your Uncle for his service!Don Reed seems very comfortable discussing my education, my profession, and seems to know that I’m 3/4 German and is now comparing me to a Nazi spy.

  • Larry Ensor

    Controlling a horse’s TCO2 level is not very difficult even if you don’t fully understand the science behind it. Testers for lactic acid can be bought over the internet. And then it is just a matter of trail and error.

  • Barry Irwin

    Obviously there is a lot of moisture in the air. Could this have contributed to those elevated carbon numbers? Quite possible I would say.

  • equine

    The only legal race day drug allowed in
    the majority of US jurisdictions is lasix, with select states allowing adjuvant meds. However in a fairly recent racing forum the use of the herb gelsemium as a homeopathic aid in the alleged prerace treatment of TB racehorses in Ireland is discussed. It is discussed in great detail including initial dosage, and repeat dosing at certain intervals until the symptoms of nervousness and anxiety visibly disappear. It’s intended to prevent a horse from washing out in the paddock & post parade. Are the allegations fact? I have absolutely no way of knowing. Nor do I know whether herbal and homeopathic products are routinely used in foreign countries, if there are tests for these natural remedies, or even if tests are available if they are regularly performed. Foreigners can make all sorts of claims re drugged U.S. horses but their definition of a bleeder is based upon a horse visibly bleeding from the nostril vs the much higher percentage of bleeders more accurately diagnosed by endoscopy. Thus, I question how they are defining drugs

  • Barry Irwin

    Steve Wonder (Boy), interestingly, there once was a horse named, of all things, Stevie Wonderboy, who not so coincidentally was trained by a Mr. Douglas O’Neill.

    Steve, you might want to tell your pals that the first rule in writing a story is that is must be plausible. Your little scenario lacks plausibility.

    Kind of like when a horseman mention’s that they never heard of milkshaking and had to look it up on Google to find out what it was.

    I am not guessing when I mention that Mr. O’Neill has hired a PR person. I met that person and this person previously did damage control for one of Mr. O’Neill’s peers, a lad named Mr. Jeff Mullins.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Hes 11 and a papillon. He was fine when he took a nap. When he woke up he couldn’t control his hindquarters at all. He was in awful pain as well. I rushed him to his Dr and after X-rays and an MRI they determined that he has a ruptured disc and another in jeopardy. He also has arthritis in his spine but that is secondary at this time. He’s on dex, amatidine, and Pepcid right now to relieve pressure on his spinal cord. Probably is going to need surgery but he is very intolerant of anesthesia, even sevoflourane, so it’s a catch 22. I’m open to advise from anyone who has knowledge of this type of injury. Thank you for asking. [email protected]

  • James D. Jimenez

    Will send good thoughts your way.

  • Barry Irwin

    Must be another slow day around the O’Neill barn, huh?

  • James D. Jimenez

    Barry Irwin and many others here have falsely accused me of being some sort of PR person or firm, I am not! I am a single person, a farrier by trade, on a single computer expressing my thoughts.

    Here is my challenge: I believe that there are many lurkers out there only reading the articles and maybe afraid to post because of the bullies that like to take control and try to discredit people for their opinions or believes because they are different than theirs. Stand up and start posting what your thoughts are. If you agree with Barry and others that’s great, if you disagree well that’s fine also. And if you have a different angle let’s hear it. 

    Our sport is in serious trouble and I feel that there just may be a golden opportunity here to capture new fans. I feel that we need a uniform nationwide proven test system in place so that all states rules are the same. I also believe that if someone is caught cheating, fixing races, or doing harm to a horse they should be punished. 

    What are your thoughts or beliefs? Get involved and don’t be bullied by anyone!

    If that is PR, I’m guilty!

    • Tinky

      Thoughts?

      Well, first of all, I didn’t see Barry accuse YOU of being a PR person. He has stated unequivocally that he KNOWS there is a PR firm advocating on O’ Neill’s behalf.

      Secondly, you are an unabashed apologist for O’ Neill.

      Finally, for a farrier, you sure have a lot of free time to spend on a computer…

      • James D. Jimenez

        Well Barry also just referenced below the fact that I have lots of free time (funny how you and Barry always seem to attack at the same time) I will address that fact. 

        In November I had a major surgery on my right shoulder and was released to shoe horses in February. The surgery was not fully successful and I can only shoe one horse per day while they use physical therapy to try to restore full use to my arm. So because of this I do have lots of free time right now. I leave for New York tonight and will spend more time at the track so you, Barry and others will be able to knock me without my responding. 

        I apologize for nobody! I have my own thoughts and express them. Because my thoughts differ from you, Barry and others you try to discredit and bully me. It’s not going to work! The biggest problem with your tactics is that others can clearly see what you are doing and are beginning to post. And what does your group start doing on their very first post? ATTACK and try to drive them away! 

        Look at how your group immediately attacks anyone that has a thought that is different than yours. Look at how your group hits the, Like, button for each other.

        I am a single person and have been accused of PR work. Barry has an international company with many employees and dozens of investors. Come on, which one of us could pull off a PR campaign? 

        • Tinky

          James –

          Glad to see an explanation for your free time. It would have helped allay suspicion had you mentioned that at the outset.

          I have no interest in attacking you personally, nor do I imagine does Barry. It’s your persistently weak attempts to defend O’ Neill that warrant sharp responses.

          • James D. Jimenez

            It seems odd that I need an explanation for the amount of post I’ve had when I believe my number fails in comparison to Barry’s and he runs an international company. I will ask you to read this article: 

            http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/62861/chrb-whistle-blower-sues-agency

            This person wasn’t a friend of Doug’s. Read what he says, do you have any thoughts? 

          • Tinky

            I believe that several organizations have, over the years, abused the system with regard to blood test results. What I mean by that is that high-profile trainers have, at times, been protected.

            Such behavior is both stupid and criminal, and I’d love to see prosecutions.

            I have no specific knowledge of the case to which you linked. At this point it is merely hearsay, though perhaps he will get his day in court.

          • James D. Jimenez

            OK, that’s fair! 
            After reading this and if this person proves to be telling the truth, do you think that a California trainer, no names, could possibly be set up or targeted? No follow up question will be ask! I am not setting you up as Barry calls it!

          • Gaited Filly

            James certainly owed you no explanation of his health or how he was on the computer. It is because you are so quick to judge and pounce. You are still in denial about your own behavior toward other people. You don’t attack personally, that’s a hoot. Unless you think they deserve it, which you previously said. Whatever you say is always justified and right in your own eyes.

        • stillriledup

          JDJ,  hopefully your shoulder gets better, here’s a raised glass to your health and recovery process!

          Just a quick note on why some might ‘jump on you’ for defending a trainer who’s being accused of cheating. The reason people jump on the defenders of the accused/cheaters is because unless you’re a person who is employed by the accused, or related to the accused or affiliated with the accused in some sort of way, there’s really not much reason to defend a person who ‘might’ have knowingly cheated the game.

          Most in the game want clean races, we don’t really care how it gets clean and we don’t care which trainers get tossed under the bus to GET it clean, we want it clean and if a few innocent trainers get run over by this runaway bus that we’ve tossed them under, so be it.

          It comes down to the idea that the most important thing racing needs to address at this time is cleaning up the sport, one cheater at a time. If an honest trainer gets swept up in the ‘sting’ operation, than its just bad luck on his part and that trainer needed to figure out a way to NOT have ‘accidental overdoses’.

          As a bettor, i could care less HOW the substances got in those horses, i just want it to not happen anymore and the game wants it to not happen anymore.

          The point isnt about guilt or innocence, its about figuring out a way to NOT have any banned substances in your horses. Doug is a top flight trainer, he’s currently training great horses for wealthy owners, he’s not some amateur who just started training 5 days ago, he’s an expert in the art of horse training, this shouldnt be happening  to HIM, he’s supposed to figure out a way to not have this happen and as we know, he hasnt figure it out. That gets people concerned that such a smart person, great trainer and according to him , as honest as the day is long, is not totally being honest..This is supposed to happen to trainers who arent as skilled and arent as experienced.

          One last thing….its important that the media and fans come down hard on these overages, accidents or not, these trainers need to understand the importance of running clean racehorses, the health and success of the game depends on it and these trainers have to know they’ll be called out hard if their horses come up positive.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Barry Irwin and many others here have falsely accused me of being some sort of PR person or firm, I am not! I am a single person, a farrier by trade, on a single computer expressing my thoughts.

    Here is my challenge: I believe that there are many lurkers out there only reading the articles and maybe afraid to post because of the bullies that like to take control and try to discredit people for their opinions or believes because they are different than theirs. Stand up and start posting what your thoughts are. If you agree with Barry and others that’s great, if you disagree well that’s fine also. And if you have a different angle let’s hear it. 

    Our sport is in serious trouble and I feel that there just may be a golden opportunity here to capture new fans. I feel that we need a uniform nationwide proven test system in place so that all states rules are the same. I also believe that if someone is caught cheating, fixing races, or doing harm to a horse they should be punished. 

    What are your thoughts or beliefs? Get involved and don’t be bullied by anyone!

    If that is PR, I’m guilty!

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Barry, I’ve never, not once, said an unkind word about you. Ever! I agree with you on many issues and I think you’re on the right track when it comes to promoting racing as a sport rather than a business. I do not know Mr. Jimenez but what he did here was offer me a kind word at a very difficult time for me. I left my email address because I think a canine discussion needs to move off the PR but I am totally surprised at your callousness. You might want to leave your mantle of cynicism on a shelf from time to time. Lisa

  • Tinky

    Thoughts?

    Well, first of all, I didn’t see Barry accuse YOU of being a PR person. He has stated unequivocally that he KNOWS there is a PR firm advocating on O’ Neill’s behalf.

    Secondly, you are an unabashed apologist for O’ Neill.

    Finally, for a farrier, you sure have a lot of free time to spend on a computer…

  • James D. Jimenez

    Well Barry also just referenced below the fact that I have lots of free time (funny how you and Barry always seem to attack at the same time) I will address that fact. 

    In November I had a major surgery on my right shoulder and was released to shoe horses in February. The surgery was not fully successful and I can only shoe one horse per day while they use physical therapy to try to restore full use to my arm. So because of this I do have lots of free time right now. I leave for New York tonight and will spend more time at the track so you, Barry and others will be able to knock me without my responding. 

    I apologize for nobody! I have my own thoughts and express them. Because my thoughts differ from you, Barry and others you try to discredit and bully me. It’s not going to work! The biggest problem with your tactics is that others can clearly see what you are doing and are beginning to post. And what does your group start doing on their very first post? ATTACK and try to drive them away! 

    Look at how your group immediately attacks anyone that has a thought that is different than yours. Look at how your group hits the, Like, button for each other.

    I am a single person and have been accused of PR work. Barry has an international company with many employees and dozens of investors. Come on, which one of us could pull off a PR campaign? 

  • Larry Ensor

    Frankel is owned and bred by Prince Khalid Abdullah, bred in the name of his Juddmonte Farm.

  • Larry Ensor

    Me too

  • Tinky

    James –

    Glad to see an explanation for your free time. It would have helped allay suspicion had you mentioned that at the outset.

    I have no interest in attacking you personally, nor do I imagine does Barry. It’s your persistently weak attempts to defend O’ Neill that warrant sharp responses.

  • James D. Jimenez

    It seems odd that I need an explanation for the amount of post I’ve had when I believe my number fails in comparison to Barry’s and he runs an international company. I will ask you to read this article: 

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/hors

    This person wasn’t a friend of Doug’s. Read what he says, do you have any thoughts? 

  • Larry Ensor

    Lisa, having had to let go of my Jack Russell recently of 19 years I understand your sensitivity. Reading you post hit home. But I took Barry’s comment more as something to “lighten” the moment and it did for me. I am not ashamed to say it made me chuckle. Hope things work out.

  • Tinky

    I believe that several organizations have, over the years, abused the system with regard to blood test results. What I mean by that is that high-profile trainers have, at times, been protected.

    Such behavior is both stupid and criminal, and I’d love to see prosecutions.

    I have no specific knowledge of the case to which you linked. At this point it is merely hearsay, though perhaps he will get his day in court.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Larry, you have my most sincere condolences on your recent loss. I’m researching dog wheelchairs at the moment. I’ll keep fighting until he doesn’t want to. Thank you for your thoughts. Lisa

  • MamaKin

     I think 4 violations for the same thing in a 4-5 year period……you’re INTENTIONALLY cheating! PERIOD! D/O should take the 15k & suspension as quickly as possible. IF he comes up positive for this AGAIN……OUT THE GATE!

  • MamaKin

     I think 4 violations for the same thing in a 4-5 year period……you’re INTENTIONALLY cheating! PERIOD! D/O should take the 15k & suspension as quickly as possible. IF he comes up positive for this AGAIN……OUT THE GATE!

  • James D. Jimenez

    OK, that’s fair! 
    After reading this and if this person proves to be telling the truth, do you think that a California trainer, no names, could possibly be set up or targeted? No follow up question will be ask! I am not setting you up as Barry calls it!

  • James D. Jimenez

    Ray,

    Can I draw your attention to Lisa’s post below where after several replies the post becomes very difficult to read and impossible to respond to. I for one would like to follow her post about this situation.

    JDJ

    • RayPaulick

      Yes, James, you may. Thank you.

      • James D. Jimenez

        LOL! Sorry, I guess I should have asked if anything can be done to fix the issue!

        • Tinky

          Believe it or not, James, I’m with you on this one.

          The system that Ray has chosen to use – Disqus – is deeply flawed, as has been pointed out many times by various posters since its adoption.

          What you are pointing out is perhaps the most ridiculous “feature” of all: an individual thread can become impossible to read if it reaches a certain length.

          I’ve used various types of software on many different forums over many years, and Disqus may be the worst. It is difficult to understand, to put it mildly, why Ray continues to ignore the problems caused by the flawed software. Perhaps he has too much invested in it, and therefore prefers to stay the course. That would be a shame, for obvious reasons.

  • James D. Jimenez

    Ray,

    Can I draw your attention to Lisa’s post below where after several replies the post becomes very difficult to read and impossible to respond to. I for one would like to follow her post about this situation.

    JDJ

  • Larry Ensor

    Figless, I can understand why you would think Milkshaking a horse is the lesser of two evils but I suggest you read up on the effects manipulating a horse’s pH buffering system. There are therapeutic reasons for giving a horse a “milk shake” but it is not done right before a race. I have my reservations on the accuracy and or method and the blanket TOC2 base line. From what I have read the method of testing is subjective and environment issues that may play a role are not taken into account. But this too is not been proven absolute. From what I have read and educated myself on the topic, IMO the rules gives plenty of “wiggle” room. As a life long athlete I have a pretty good understanding of the biochemical science. For the record I have never “Milkshaked” a horse. I do know that it is and can be very tricky to get right. And does not take much to “over dose”. Trainers utilizing this do not have the proper testing equipment. Instead they have to use “general” guidelines which can be found on the internet or training manuals (human). Trial and error.
    The ruling states;
    Imhoff pointed out in his decision that Rule 1843.6, applicable to the case, does not say “manipulation” of TCO2 levels is illegal, only that testing above the 37.0 threshold is.

    Again if you understood the nasty consequences of not getting it “right” and the harm that can come to horse and rider/s the rule is more then fair. And IMO so was the ruling against Mr. O’Neill.
    Your argument that the facts would not hold up in Court maybe true. But the fact that the vast majority of horses experiencing the same conditions never test over the base limit and O’Neill’s horses did for reasons stated doesn’t pass the sniff test with reasonable and practical thinking people.

  • James D. Jimenez

    I just read your first link and have a question. If this supplement really works wouldn’t there be an issue with a trainer using it and the horse running well and then not using it for a couple of races to establish poor form and adding it again for 6 weeks to produce an improved performance. 

    It seems that the major concern with anything that may work is the fact that it can then be removed from the horse and then added again to produce the desired results. This is why something like lasix must be used every time the horse runs after it is started to remove the suspicion factor.

    Sounds like legal/natural milk shake in the description of results.

  • RayPaulick

    Yes, James, you may. Thank you.

  • James D. Jimenez

    LOL! Sorry, I guess I should have asked if anything can be done to fix the issue!

  • Bourbon Gal

    Lisa,

    I’ve got a dog who gets acupuncture to control back pain and it has worked wonders. He was on water therapy, painkillers, muscle relaxers and various joint supplements but the acupuncture has been the best treatment by far. He no longer takes any drugs. He also sees a chiropractor who is also a holistic vet. See if there are any Chi Institute holistic vets in your area. I am a believer. Good luck. You have my greatest sympathy. I am a Dog Mom first and foremost.

  • Lisa Wintermote

    Bourbon Gal,
    Thank you! He sees Dr Zie @ the UofF for acupuncture when we’re in FL do you know of someone near here (Woodford Co)? I left my email address above. I use only holistic food as it is and my vet is very open to holistic therapies. Any help is greatly appreciated! Lisa

  • equine

    I recall back in the early-mid 1980s it was common here for horses to get vitamin jugs with amino acids in them the day before a race. The amino acids were so popular you could actually purchase them in the local farm supply stores and administer them yourself if you were stabled off track. Eventually their usage was prohibited. It became such a big issue with the tracks the farm stores stopped carrying the product. Did it actually help horses? IMO it gave a little bit of an edge to those who were fit, sound and placed right

  • equine

    So although the Storm may be a different amino acid with a different route of administration I would assume it would eventually be illegal in the U.S.

  • Tinky

    Believe it or not, James, I’m with you on this one.

    The system that Ray has chosen to use – Disqus – is deeply flawed, as has been pointed out many times by various posters since its adoption.

    What you are pointing out is perhaps the most ridiculous “feature” of all: an individual thread can become impossible to read if it reaches a certain length.

    I’ve used various types of software on many different forums over many years, and Disqus may be the worst. It is difficult to understand, to put it mildly, why Ray continues to ignore the problems caused by the flawed software. Perhaps he has too much invested in it, and therefore prefers to stay the course. That would be a shame, for obvious reasons.

  • Gaited Filly

    Not sure if you are being sarcastic or joking, I later remembered it is called nano technology. 

  • Gaited Filly

    James certainly owed you no explanation of his health or how he was on the computer. It is because you are so quick to judge and pounce. You are still in denial about your own behavior toward other people. You don’t attack personally, that’s a hoot. Unless you think they deserve it, which you previously said. Whatever you do is always justified and right in your own eyes. I didn’t think your comment about James commenting on the lady’s dog was an attempt to “lighten the mood.” Just a way to bring the focus back to you & your favorite topics.

  • Gaited Filly

    Thank you for the correction. I knew his trainer but had a brain cramp on the farm. I would still like to know if it is used and exactly how widely it is used. Why is it legal there, or not considered a drug and what the results are with the horses.

  • Gaited Filly

    I re-read the article and did not see anything about removing it from the horse. Why do that? To set up a good betting scam??? it said it takes 4-6 wks to show the effects and the horse continues its use during training and racing. It might take time for a negative effect to show. I’m no scientist, just curious and trying to learn. It inhibits the formation of lactic acids like milkshakes but it works through the muscle system and not the blood. I need to read the link about it in the UK. Read the training method article, no performance enhancing substances, just doing the training in specific ways so it maximizes the horses natural ability to deal with lactic acid.

  • Gaited Filly

    I was just thinking the same about you. Bored?

  • hip703

    Barry Irwin,

    Please get over yourself.  There is not one shred of evidence that I’ll Have Another was given performance-enhancing drugs, as you imply in your ongoing campaign against O’Neill.  I am not an O’Neill fan, and was angry with him about the Burna Dette incident at Los Alamitos two years ago.  But your incessant cheap shots, and those of others, has led me to develop an empathy for the man.

    So please be clear: are you suggesting that O’Neill has given I’ll Have Another performance-enhancing drugs?  If not, what is the point of all of your blathering?

    I’ll Have Another is a great story, and great for the sport.  Too bad the story has to be sullied by bitter individuals such as yourself.

  • Jimculpepper

    Storm apparently is apparently beta-alanine, oral administration I presume.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bobbymac76 Bobby McMeans

    You do realize we are talking about electrolytes and baking soda here right? Neither of which is illegal, only tubing a horse with the formula is at that this time. This is not Procaine or Lidocaine of which Pletcher and Asmussen were suspended for. It can be feed daily as a supplement to help horses that tie up or have muscle soreness. Mr. Irwin, your horses are probably being feed a vitamin supplement that contains this mixture along with Vitamin E and Selenium. Or have you instructed your trainer not to feed electrolytes and baking soda as there is a chance that they could build up in the horses system and then you would be labeled a cheater?

    If you don’t like Doug O’Neill that’s fine. Just say so. But to try and base your whole arguement that he is bad for racing because of bicarbonite of soda sounds ridiculous. My non-horse racing friends think he’s great and that’s what matters in my world. 

    • Jimculpepper

      If you don’t like the rules you shouldn’t play, if you won’t go by the rules you should not be allowed to play and yes, given dosing horses with crap that makes horse meat toxic waste, the baking soda business is a bit over the top.

      • Lory

        jim you talk nonsense the most toxic substense used is wormer .it does have a somewhat long life and is asorbed easily. in fact my vet thinks backstrech workers are safer from parasites then ever before due to the ability of wormer to be asorbed thru skin contact

  • http://www.facebook.com/bobbymac76 Bobby McMeans

    You do realize we are talking about electrolytes and baking soda here right? Neither of which is illegal, only tubing a horse with the formula is at that this time. This is not Procaine or Lidocaine of which Pletcher and Asmussen were suspended for. It can be feed daily as a supplement to help horses that tie up or have muscle soreness. Mr. Irwin, your horses are probably being feed a vitamin supplement that contains this mixture along with Vitamin E and Selenium. Or have you instructed your trainer not to feed electrolytes and baking soda as there is a chance that they could build up in the horses system and then you would be labeled a cheater?

    If you don’t like Doug O’Neill that’s fine. Just say so. But to try and base your whole arguement that he is bad for racing because of bicarbonite of soda sounds ridiculous. My non-horse racing friends think he’s great and that’s what matters in my world. 

  • Jimculpepper

    Ms. Rarick mentions this in her post on this blog.  This whole hydration/bleeding curls my hair.  I race pigeons; any who need to be dehydrated prior to a distance race to prevent any disorder are culls by definition.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GN75TMMTTZCDAKCKWH4QH6RDYQ Ronald T

    I don’t have a dog in this fight but I’ve been at this long enough to understand that the old way of racing aka, “hay,oats,and water”left the station a long time ago…..I’m not in favor of all the drugs that have come into the game in the last 15 to 20 years but the moralists who preach here and at other sites have to accept that as long as their is money to be made some guys from Belmont to Berkshire are going to cheat and with no national governing body in place nothing is going to change….

    • Gaited Filly

      Telling it like it is!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GN75TMMTTZCDAKCKWH4QH6RDYQ Ronald T

    I don’t have a dog in this fight but I’ve been at this long enough to understand that the old way of racing aka, “hay,oats,and water”left the station a long time ago…..I’m not in favor of all the drugs that have come into the game in the last 15 to 20 years but the moralists who preach here and at other sites have to accept that as long as their is money to be made some guys from Belmont to Berkshire are going to cheat and with no national governing body in place nothing is going to change….

  • Jimculpepper

    If you don’t like the rules you shouldn’t play, if you won’t go by the rules you should not be allowed to play and yes, given dosing horses with crap that makes horse meat toxic waste, the baking soda business is a bit over the top.

  • Jimculpepper

    Maybe trainers with too many positives should were a uniform with bright “RULE  Bend Or spots” so that everyone knows to keep an eye on them.  Yes,, I am pulling for I’ll Have Another, and I am very annoyed with Mr. O’Neill  because  I told Frank Mitchell, prior to the derby, that I really liked the way O’Neill was conditioning the colt. Still, years ago, at the Keeneland sale, John Ward said of the colts, “look at them, they are all beautiful.”

  • Jimculpepper

    Maybe trainers with too many positives should were a uniform with bright “RULE  Bend Or spots” so that everyone knows to keep an eye on them.  Yes,, I am pulling for I’ll Have Another, and I am very annoyed with Mr. O’Neill  because  I told Frank Mitchell, prior to the derby, that I really liked the way O’Neill was conditioning the colt. Still, years ago, at the Keeneland sale, John Ward said of the colts, “look at them, they are all beautiful.”

  • Larry Ensor

    Just trying to lighten things. Your post reminded me of the seen from the movie and that was something like 30 years ago which seemed plausible at the time . So my point was just think what someone could do now if they were so inclined.

     

  • Gaited Filly

    Telling it like it is!

  • May Flower

    If the CHRB decided to raise the permitted TCO2 level to 40.0 would horses trained by the usual suspects frequently test at 38.0 and 39.0.?

  • stillriledup

     JDJ,  hopefully your shoulder gets better, here’s a raised glass to your health and recovery process!

    Just a quick note on why some might ‘jump on you’ for defending a trainer who’s being accused of cheating. The reason people jump on the defenders of the accused/cheaters is because unless you’re a person who is employed by the accused, or related to the accused or affiliated with the accused in some sort of way, there’s really not much reason to defend a person who ‘might’ have knowingly cheated the game.

    Most in the game want clean races, we don’t really care how it gets clean and we don’t care which trainers get tossed under the bus to GET it clean, we want it clean and if a few innocent trainers get run over by this runaway bus that we’ve tossed them under, so be it.

    It comes down to the idea that the most important thing racing needs to address at this time is cleaning up the sport, one cheater at a time. If an honest trainer gets swept up in the ‘sting’ operation, than its just bad luck on his part and that trainer needed to figure out a way to NOT have ‘accidental overdoses’.

    As a bettor, i could care less HOW the substances got in those horses, i just want it to not happen anymore and the game wants it to not happen anymore.

    The point isnt about guilt or innocence, its about figuring out a way to NOT have any banned substances in your horses. Doug is a top flight trainer, he’s currently training great horses for wealthy owners, he’s not some amateur who just started training 5 days ago, he’s an expert in the art of horse training, this shouldnt be happening  to HIM, he’s supposed to figure out a way to not have this happen and as we know, he hasnt figure it out. That gets people concerned that such a smart person, great trainer and according to him , as honest as the day is long..This is supposed to happen to trainers who arent as skilled and arent as experienced.

    One last thing….its important that the media and fans come down hard on these overages, accidents or not, these trainers need to understand the importance of running clean racehorses, the health and success of the game depends on it and these trainers have to know they’ll be called out hard if their horses come up positive.

  • Lory

    Further tests from the Maddy Lab supported O’Neill’s contention. Sodium and chloride levels for Argenta both tested in the normal range, and Imhoff wrote in his report that experts for O’Neill and the CHRB “agreed that if Argenta had been milkshaked with baking soda (NaHCO3) this would have resulted in a highly elevated sodium level.”

    I USED TO ADD CORN OIL TO LAST FEED BEFORE RACE LOTS OF IT HORSES LOVED IT AND SEEMED TO HAVE MORE STAMINA .I THOUGHT THIS LOADING WAS GOOD FOR THEM IN RACE AND AFTERWARDS. IF A MILK SHAKE BAD TEST IS NOT A MILKSHATE THEN HOW CAN IT BE CALLED A MILSHAKE. SHOULD HE BE PENALIZED FOR SUPERIOR FEEDING PLAN.

    • Tinky

      The penalty is for exceeding a testing limit; how the limit was exceeded is beside the point. 

      • Lory

        how can it be Tinky-do you have any idea how much quality of different feeds inc. hay can change – analisis of protein levels etc take time and add cost. alfalfa can vary in a field from one end to other .can change on level of maturity on if it is sprinkled on . oats can vary also. formulated feed may vary even more and additives to same are a rough estimate . those same feeds can vary from start to end of run, as horse vitamins are not labeled under USDA or other testing body how accurate are their formulas. where do ingredients come from ? how are protein & fat levels boosted ? remember the way the dog food levels were boosted. you can trust all suppliment makers only so much. check out the signs at dairy queen about the nuts. contamination is not that uncommon.

  • Lory

    Further tests from the Maddy Lab supported O’Neill’s contention. Sodium and chloride levels for Argenta both tested in the normal range, and Imhoff wrote in his report that experts for O’Neill and the CHRB “agreed that if Argenta had been milkshaked with baking soda (NaHCO3) this would have resulted in a highly elevated sodium level.”

    I USED TO ADD CORN OIL TO LAST FEED BEFORE RACE LOTS OF IT HORSES LOVED IT AND SEEMED TO HAVE MORE STAMINA .I THOUGHT THIS LOADING WAS GOOD FOR THEM IN RACE AND AFTERWARDS. IF A MILK SHAKE BAD TEST IS NOT A MILKSHATE THEN HOW CAN IT BE CALLED A MILSHAKE. SHOULD HE BE PENALIZED FOR SUPERIOR FEEDING PLAN.

  • Tinky

    The penalty is for exceeding a testing limit; how the limit was exceeded is beside the point. 

  • Lory

    how can it be Tinky-do you have any idea how much quality of different feeds inc. hay can change – analisis of protein levels etc take time and add cost. alfalfa can vary in a field from one end to other .can change on level of maturity on if it is sprinkled on . oats can vary also. formulated feed may vary even more and additives to same are a rough estimate . those same feeds can vary from start to end of run, as horse vitamins are not labeled under USDA or other testing body how accurate are their formulas. where do ingredients come from ? how are protein & fat levels boosted ? remember the way the dog food levels were boosted. you can trust all suppliment makers only so much. check out the signs at dairy queen about the nuts. contamination is not that uncommon.

  • Lory

    jim you talk nonsense the most toxic substense used is wormer .it does have a somewhat long life and is asorbed easily. in fact my vet thinks backstrech workers are safer from parasites then ever before due to the ability of wormer to be asorbed thru skin contact

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