$10 a share: Stronach sets up new racehorse investment companies

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Frank Stronach Frank Stronach

So you’ve always wanted to own a piece of a racehorse but the entry-level costs are a little too much. A series of new public companies created by multiple Eclipse Award-winning horseman and racetrack owner Frank Stronach and associates might be just the ticket for you.

S-1 registration statements were filed in late December with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for an initial public offering for six separate racing corporations (all named after prominent Stronach racehorses), with a share price set for $10. Each of the six corporations will own 20 Thoroughbreds purchased as yearlings in 2011, and a total of 405,000 shares will be offered in each corporation.


For example, the Awesome Again Racing Corporation (the others are named the Red Bullet, Ghostzapper, Perfect Sting, Ginger Punch, and Macho Uno) has 20 horses that will turn 2 years old Jan. 1. They were purchased as yearlings in 2011 for prices ranging from $4,000 to $310,000.  The average cost per horse in each partnership is roughly $61,000.

The share prices will cover the cost of training and standard veterinary services ($150/day per horse in training and $50/day for layups) until November 2013, when the entire group of horses will be sold at public auction (minus those which may have been died due to illness or injury, or sold in claiming races). Each corporation will have $100,000 set aside for emergency veterinary care. As a normal course of business, the corporations will not have substitutes in the event of deceased or sold horses.

According to the S-1 registration statement, approximately 27% of the money raised through the sale of stock will go toward expenses related to the initial public offering, legal fees, accounting, and administration.

So, from an estimated $4,050,000 raised from each of the six offerings, approximately $1.2 million will go toward repaying Stronach companies for the purchase and early training of the yearlings, roughly $1.8 million will be spent on training/veterinary fees, and  $1.1 million will go toward administrative and legal costs.

The individual racing corporations will be managed by Golden Pegasus, a privately held company formed by the Stronach Group. That company will have 10% ownership in each corporation.  Stronach is chairman of the Golden Pegasus board of directors, which also includes Jack Brothers, Alon Ossip (executive vice president and counsel for the Stronach Group), Howard Walton, Lorne Weiss, and Ron Charles, who formerly ran Stronach’s California racetracks. Golden Pegasus will make all decisions regarding the selection and hiring of trainers, which races to enter, and other related matters. Michael Rogers will serve as CEO of Golden Pegasus, with Mark Roberts president. Jack Brothers will be CEO of the individual corporations.

Horses owned by the corporation will be based on both the West and East Coasts, and the S-1 papers state the horses will favor races at Gulfstream Park and Santa Anita Park, tracks owned by the Stronach Group.

Stronach officials involved in the initial publilc offering did not return phone calls for comment, but Terry Finley, the president and founder of West Point Thoroughbreds, which offers privately held partnerships for racehorse ownership, said he viewed Stronach’s creation of racing corporations in a very positive light. “The more people we have going online, Googling horse racing, learning about our business, learning about ownership and the game in general, the bigger the pool of people who say I’d like to get into a partnership,” Finley said.

Finley said he was unaware of any similar publicly traded racing corporations that focused solely on racehorse ownership. The corporations are not unlike the extremely popular racing clubs organized in Japan where everyday fans participate in “paper ownership” of horses at low entry-level fees. Some of Japan’s biggest racing stars, including the recently retired 2010 Horse of the Year Buena Vista, are owned by racing clubs.

To read the SEC S-1 registration statement for the Awesome Again Racing Corporation, click here. For other documents related to Awesome Again Racing Corporation click here.

Ghostzapper Racing Corporation documents.

Ginger Purch Racing Corporation documents.

Macho Uno Racing Corporation documents.

Perfect String Racing Corporation documents.

Red Bullet Racing Corporation documents.

The website www.horseexchange.com has been reserved for additional information on the racing corporations.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1096788047 Pattie Mulderig

    I want in! What a great idea!  

    • RayPaulick

      I’m glad to see at least one person sees the value in this.

      • BELLWETHER

        FRANK NEEDS TO LISTEN TO THE RITE PEOPLE…TELL HIM ITS TIME TO STEP OUT “THE BOX” BABY!!!…TY…

    • terrang

      Pattie, it might be tougher to do today.  but about 20 years ago I bought a horse a week before he was born for a grand in Utah. Grandson of Honest Pleasure.   Formed a four share syndicate among relatives and friends.  In those days we could board a horse at the breeder’s place for $75 a month.  We eventually sent him to Lynda Tanner in Arizona and to I think a trainer called Painer in Wyomng.  Though a may foal, he qualified for both Wyoming Downs futurities and eventually broke his maiden at age 4 at Turf Paradise.  Our indvidual costs back then were about five or six hundred a year.  (Even though Wyoming Downs went bankrupt and stiffed us for a thousand dollars in winnings.)  

      I know it is tougher to do this now…but if you have several friends.    this is more fun and more hands on than turning money over to Stronach.  I also bought into two Karakorum partnerships for a few hundred bucks and a few dollars a month for a half percent share. One filly, Fly with Karakorum, won over 200K and was their Xmas card cover girl. It was fun to see her develop from a gangly two year old into a tough New York bred allowance horse.  The other, Karakorum Tuxedo, broke his maiden at something like 40 to 1 but when I tried to bet in Colorado on the race I was shut out because it was a mandated dark day that day in Colorado for N. Y. racing.  He was claimed from us early on but went on to win over 200K also.  Though Karakorum accounting was not too transparent and for the little half or one share owners, it was just fun money. Though fly after a while did not cost much for maintenance… though we were charged for the winning videos and color photos. 
        Look into Racing Naton and their partnerships.  Or a few other low cost partnership schemes.   Wasn/t there a horse that placed in a classic a year or two ago and then shipped to England to run. And its owners chipped in three hundred bucks each to buy this horse.  You really don’t need Stronach.
        Anyway, sometimes some of us syndicate members in Utah would visit the farm and see the yearlings  play and one time we had to scramble up the rail fence when they thundered into the pen at feeding time.  Try to get that kind of experience… Go to a local track and see your horse work in the morning….

    • James Staples

      GO ON GIRL!!!…JUMP N WITH BOTH HANDS & BOTH FEET!!!…GOOD LUCK???…ty…

    • Rjt

      Reference the 1/3/12 article regarding surgery for Harlem Rocker, one of the horses in the Adena Racing Venture II offering.  Would it be unreasonable to expect that those who invested in that endeavor would have been notified before they were allowed to discover the information via general media release?  Would it have been reasonable to expect that they be notified when one of the horses that was actively racing was retired, injured, or sold?  Many people thought that was a good idea too, but received no more information than that provided in general press releases. 

      • Don

        This doesn’t surprise me a bit. Adena II & III should have been, in my opinion, investigated for non disclosure.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1096788047 Pattie Mulderig

    I want in! What a great idea!  

  • Tres Abogados Stupidos

    Very nice idea……..wrong person to be starting it up though.

    • Jeffrey H

      Tres, There is tons of catches that might result this from the following,

      Racing Corporations would have to join MEC and the horse racing network HRTV with Limited Audience,

      Being sure to have other tracks join in on this deal if they are to own horses in their region,

      And to be sure they have their horses to run at the Stronach and HRTV based tracks, not TVG.

      • RayPaulick

        Jeffrey,

        MEC no longer exists.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

      That’s the – well, you said it, not I – the opinion of one stupid lawyer.

      What say the other two?

  • Tres Abogados Stupidos

    Very nice idea……..wrong person to be starting it up though.

  • Buglet

    I like this idea. It has the potential to give a lot of people a rooting interest for a small amount of money. Nice job, Frank.

  • Buglet

    I like this idea. It has the potential to give a lot of people a rooting interest for a small amount of money. Nice job, Frank.

  • Ace

    Please dont forget who already robbed the investment public of $1 billion when he tanked MEC stock and then bought it back for-nothing.

  • Ace

    Please dont forget who already robbed the investment public of $1 billion when he tanked MEC stock and then bought it back for-nothing.

  • Buglet

    Meanwhile…over at the CDI offices…they are just snoring away.

    Bonus Bob gets a little twitch in his leg whenever he starts dreaming of all that slot money.

  • Buglet

    Meanwhile…over at the CDI offices…they are just snoring away.

    Bonus Bob gets a little twitch in his leg whenever he starts dreaming of all that slot money.

  • Csz

    $150/day for training? Talk about a markup. Ripoff.

    • RayPaulick

      Csz

      If you read the S-1, you’ll see the costs are all inclusive (vet, blacksmith, etc.)

      • Grarick

        Wow. My “all-in” rate is 55 euros a day, and that’s about standard. Amazing people will pay 150.

        • CVFRacing

          Gina: you’re right, as usual. Even in NY, where I race, the day rate is US$90, and my average vet and farrier bills ad $15 a month to that. And NY is the most expensive place to race in the US. Just one of many rip-offs that are visible if one reads the S-1 carefully.

    • Promoter

      Thanks for pointing that out Csz.  It is a total rip off plus those unbelievable administrative fees.  This is not a nice thought, but rather a CYA for Stronach.  How about the stewards of the industry try to do this without a profit motive.  

  • Csz

    $150/day for training? Talk about a markup. Ripoff.

  • WoodbineMike

    Great idea but it might be well to wait until well after the IPO to see what the shares earn.  I hope they will trade on the NYSE under their stricter regulations.

    • Picksburg Phil

      Way to small for NYSE (or Amex or NASDAQ). Prospectus states that they may or may not trade on the Pink Sheets. More likely to trade privately.

      • Steve Zorn

        And how, exactly, does Frank plan to raise $4 million times six trading privately?

        • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

          He never could and even if he found many investors willing to pool significant money, he would have to deal with the accredited investor guidelines.

          This idea is horrible on so many levels and since people can read the filing papers you only have yourselves to blame if you invest. 

  • WoodbineMike

    Great idea but it might be well to wait until well after the IPO to see what the shares earn.  I hope they will trade on the NYSE under their stricter regulations.

  • roger

    I concur with Ace’s stock analysis…..FS…you want to get people interested in the game…LOWER THE TAKEOUT RATE!

  • roger

    I concur with Ace’s stock analysis…..FS…you want to get people interested in the game…LOWER THE TAKEOUT RATE!

  • Picksburg Phil

    Way to small for NYSE (or Amex or NASDAQ). Prospectus states that they may or may not trade on the Pink Sheets. More likely to trade privately.

  • Jonmayer28

    there would be no thouroughbred industry without Frank Stronach

    • JacobinMugatu

      Jonmayer28…

      Put the pipe down and back away from the keyboard NOW!

      • Real Quiet

        Thanks Ray for sharing.

        Frank Stronach continues to be creative and finds new ways to get new people into the thoroughbred industry. If successful, could be another way to expand the pie. Good luck to the connections.

        • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

          Sure, he can potentially get people in for $10 a piece who then turn against ownership because this is being sold as a profit making investment.  This is about Frank making money and being able to run horses on someone else’s dime…nothing more and nothing less.

    • Bellwether

      BULL $HEET!!!…

  • Jonmayer28

    there would be no thouroughbred industry without Frank Stronach

  • JacobinMugatu

    Jonmayer28…

    Put the pipe down and back away from the keyboard NOW!

  • danzig

    I’d short all the shares I could at the proposed $10 a share price.  Six months after the IPO, they’ll be worth a fraction of the initial price.  Based on the experience with MEC, I can’t imagine any institutional demand for this from anyone but a few insiders.  And between the administration, training and other fees – caveat emptor.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

      D: Shares have to have some value in order to be shorted.

      But not all is lost.

      This proposition will ultimately benefit the good citizens of Barcelona, Spain, where toilet paper is currently being rationed.

  • danzig

    I’d short all the shares I could at the proposed $10 a share price.  Six months after the IPO, they’ll be worth a fraction of the initial price.  Based on the experience with MEC, I can’t imagine any institutional demand for this from anyone but a few insiders.  And between the administration, training and other fees – caveat emptor.

  • Jeffrey H

    Tres, There is tons of catches that might result this from the following,

    Racing Corporations would have to join MEC and the horse racing network HRTV with Limited Audience,

    Being sure to have other tracks join in on this deal if they are to own horses in their region,

    And to be sure they have their horses to run at the Stronach and HRTV based tracks, not TVG.

  • Sinking Ship

    For some reason this reminds me of Robert Brennan and the stock scam/swindle he perpetrated upon the public when he took ITB (International Thoroughbred Breeders) public. Did some time in the Big House after that …

  • Sinking Ship

    For some reason this reminds me of Robert Brennan and the stock scam/swindle he perpetrated upon the public when he took ITB (International Thoroughbred Breeders) public. Did some time in the Big House after that …

    • LongTimeEconomist

      His time in the big house had nothing to do with ITB, but was solely related to personal bankruptcy fraud.

  • NotaFan

    Yeah, because he’s done so much for racing already. #snort

  • NotaFan

    Yeah, because he’s done so much for racing already. #snort

  • Johnny

    where’s avioli in all of this — he’s a lawyer isn’t he — is it his idea? or is he letting frank walk the plank publicly by himself

    • RayPaulick

      Johnny,

      Most companies decline to comment on IPOs. It’s something the SEC frowns upon.

  • Johnny

    where’s avioli in all of this — he’s a lawyer isn’t he — is it his idea? or is he letting frank walk the plank publicly by himself

  • RayPaulick

    Johnny,

    Most companies decline to comment on IPOs. It’s something the SEC frowns upon.

  • RayPaulick

    Csz

    If you read the S-1, you’ll see the costs are all inclusive (vet, blacksmith, etc.)

  • RayPaulick

    Jeffrey,

    MEC no longer exists.

  • RayPaulick

    I’m glad to see at least one person sees the value in this.

  • Bookie

    People interested should have a chat with those involved in the Adena Racing Ventures. Ask them about the return and about the participation that was allowed. Of course, the fee was not $10. It was 60 – 100 times that amount.

    • Don

      Bookie, you are correct.  I was involved.  While they stated up front that it was a gamble, the management’s communication with the investors was virtually nonexistent.  Minimal updates, virtually no accounting (and still NO final accounting on ARV II) This was a classic “take the money and run” scheme to offer a “Racing Experience” with no return. (financial or otherwise)  We have a wall of win photos of “our” horses from ARVII and ARVIII……that’s the extent of it (with the exception of a pitifully tiny check that paid for 2 photos).

      My suggestion is to pick a number of horses on Jan 1. 
      Watch their races either at the track, on line, or on TV
      Put them in a free on line “Virtual Stable” 
      Set up a free google news search for those horses
      When they win, buy the photo from the track photographer.

      You’ll be way ahead of the game.

      Been there, done that.  Frank Stronach = P.T. Barnum

  • Bookie

    People interested should have a chat with those involved in the Adena Racing Ventures. Ask them about the return and about the participation that was allowed. Of course, the fee was not $10. It was 60 – 100 times that amount.

  • Robb

    Because if there’s one man who knows anything about making money in the horse racing industry, it’s Frank Stronach.  #sarcasm

  • Robb

    Because if there’s one man who knows anything about making money in the horse racing industry, it’s Frank Stronach.  #sarcasm

  • Michael

    Looks like an easy and cheap way to own a piece of 20 horses.   No bills. If I am reading correct, the 150 is an all in fee.

  • Michael

    Looks like an easy and cheap way to own a piece of 20 horses.   No bills. If I am reading correct, the 150 is an all in fee.

  • Bellwether

    BULL $HEET!!!…

  • Grarick

    Wow. My “all-in” rate is 55 euros a day, and that’s about standard. Amazing people will pay 150.

  • Horsefarms

    No investment firm will underwrite this offering…it is ripe for litigation.   No chance of getting an exchange listing either….pink sheets at best…their will be very thin liquidity in the shares

  • Horsefarms

    No investment firm will underwrite this offering…it is ripe for litigation.   No chance of getting an exchange listing either….pink sheets at best…their will be very thin liquidity in the shares

  • Tjs

    Unique concept. Obviously swinging for the fences. Each of these entities ate shooting for a Classics horse……….you get one, and you get a 4-5 X return. The only Issue I have is the break up. Raising $4mm in 5 separate entities? Why fragment your asset base. It’s a numbers game. A better shot of the big horse out of the pool of 100. I think the advisors influenced the deal to pad the filing fees.

    Like the deal overall. Frank, in ’14 put them all in the basket and tell the attorneys to jag off.

  • Tjs

    Unique concept. Obviously swinging for the fences. Each of these entities ate shooting for a Classics horse……….you get one, and you get a 4-5 X return. The only Issue I have is the break up. Raising $4mm in 5 separate entities? Why fragment your asset base. It’s a numbers game. A better shot of the big horse out of the pool of 100. I think the advisors influenced the deal to pad the filing fees.

    Like the deal overall. Frank, in ’14 put them all in the basket and tell the attorneys to jag off.

  • Don

    Bookie, you are correct.  I was involved.  While they stated up front that it was a gamble, the management’s communication with the investors was virtually nonexistent.  Minimal updates, virtually no accounting (and still NO final accounting on ARV II) This was a classic “take the money and run” scheme to offer a “Racing Experience” with no return. (financial or otherwise)  We have a wall of win photos of “our” horses from ARVII and ARVIII……that’s the extent of it (with the exception of a pitifully tiny check that paid for 2 photos).

    My suggestion is to pick a number of horses on Jan 1. 
    Watch their races either at the track, on line, or on TV
    Put them in a free on line “Virtual Stable” 
    Set up a free google news search for those horses
    When they win, buy the photo from the track photographer.

    You’ll be way ahead of the game.

    Been there, done that.  Frank Stronach = P.T. Barnum

  • Larry Ensor

    Geez people.  Quoting Sgt. Oddball from Kelly’s Hero’s;  “Stop with the negative vibes will ya!”  
    I doubt fans that buy stock in the Greenbay Packers expect a ROI. But that doesn’t diminish the value of the investment to the fan.  If it’s only about money who in the world would ever by a horse of any kind? 

  • Larry Ensor

    Geez people.  Quoting Sgt. Oddball from Kelly’s Hero’s;  “Stop with the negative vibes will ya!”  
    I doubt fans that buy stock in the Greenbay Packers expect a ROI. But that doesn’t diminish the value of the investment to the fan.  If it’s only about money who in the world would ever by a horse of any kind?

  • Stuart Morrs

    What a great plan. Most importantly, several talented familiar names appear to be involved as well. Good luck!!!

  • Stuart Morrs

    What a great plan. Most importantly, several talented familiar names appear to be involved as well. Good luck!!!

  • Barry Irwin

    I applaud Stronach for at least trying something interesting. And Mark Roberts, Jack Brothers and Mike Rogers are highly qualified and reputable professionals with proven track records of success.

    However, history shows that every single public offering, in which horse people reach out to the public, has ended in failure and lawsuits filed by the investors.

    The list is quite formidable and includes Spendthrift Farm when it was owned by the founder and his son.

    At least Stronach isn’t trying to raise money in a blind pool and then buy the horses. He’s bought the stock.

    I wish him luck.

    • LongTimeEconomist

      Or he has bred them.

  • Barry Irwin

    I applaud Stronach for at least trying something interesting. And Mark Roberts, Jack Brothers and Mike Rogers are highly qualified and reputable professionals with proven track records of success.

    However, history shows that every single public offering, in which horse people reach out to the public, has ended in failure and lawsuits filed by the investors.

    The list is quite formidable and includes Spendthrift Farm when it was owned by the founder and his son.

    At least Stronach isn’t trying to raise money in a blind pool and then buy the horses. He’s bought the stock.

    I wish him luck.

  • Barry Irwin

    In my comment I reference Spendthrift Farm. I want to be clear that this is in no way a reflection on the current ownership of that legendary farm, but the previous owners several decades ago. The current Spendthrift Farm is a legitimate, first-class operation.

    • Satchel

      Barry, that’s why it’s much better to post anonymously…no caveats or corrections are then necessary !!!

      Thanks, though, for posting sans nom de guerre.

  • Barry Irwin

    In my comment I reference Spendthrift Farm. I want to be clear that this is in no way a reflection on the current ownership of that legendary farm, but the previous owners several decades ago. The current Spendthrift Farm is a legitimate, first-class operation.

  • Tapit

    My hero strikes again

  • Tapit

    My hero strikes again

  • McGov

    We need 100 more Stronachs and 1000 less armchair critics that poison this kind of optimistic momentum.

    • RayPaulick

      You are so right, McGov. The  S-1 registration statements, which anyone can read, clearly spell out the risk factors in this as an investment, and there are many.

      One thing I’ve learned, sadly, is that this game is full of knockers.

      The S-1′s are not permitted to extol the virtues of this idea, which are to bring people closer to the game, to get them excited about what it’s like to “own” a racehorse, to learn about racing. The racing clubs in Japan, to which the Stronach ventures can be compared, have been phenomenally successful and people who are members do not get involved because it’s a great investment. In fact, the Japan racing clubs lease the horses from breeders, so if one of the horses in the club wins a G1 race and becomes a high-priced stallion or broodmare prospect, the club members do not share any of the upside of the residual value.

      One of the neat things about the racing clubs is how the various members are invited to farms to see the horses they have invested in before they are sent to the training centers to begin their racing careers, to get together for social occasions around major races their horses may be participating in, and getting regular updates from the club administrators.  I hope this is something Stronach’s associates will consider, though SEC rules are very strict and the corporations have to be careful to follow all SEC rules in all interactions with investors.

      • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

        Ray,
         
        I suggest getting feedback from existing Adena Springs Partnership members before talking about visits to the farms, etc.  I obviously appreciate the concept of Partnerships (I run one) but don’t appreciate ludicrous markups and upfront profits hidden under “administrative fees”.  From the feedback I have read about Adena Springs Partnerships (albeit limited), the communication and interaction with Partners is weak on a much smaller scale so it is doubtful thousands of people buying in @ $10/share would get anything in the way of real participation.  And since Adena Springs is heavily involved in breeding, I think the likelihood of a conflict of interest is significant….”purchasing” horses from their stock.

        Most people that are against Stronach are not “armchair” critics.  Like me, they are involved in the game and have watched Stronach repeatedly say one thing and do another while further jeopardize our local industries.  Look at what he has done in MD over the last (2) years as a clear example of how Stronach really operates…broken promises and no real investment in the game (public record so please do not delete).

        If you want to buy 1/400,000 of a handful of horses when 25% of the offering is gone upfront to legal and “administrative” fees, operating expenses are marked up 2 times or more, there is a significant chance of conflict of interest and the offering is put together by someone with the record of Stronach, more power to you.  But let’s not pretend this is being done out of the goodness of his heart to get people involved in racing or that people will get even the slightest taste of what real horse ownership is when they are 1 of thousands of owners involved in a Partnership.

        • RayPaulick

          Stewart…

          I am reminded of the Shakespeare line that the lady doth protest too much.

          Maybe it doesn’t matter, but I’m wondering if you are in competition for the same potential investors this initial public offering might attract. If that’s the case, I would prefer you disclose that information or use your full name, as Steve Zorn has done.

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            My name is Stewart Nickel and my URL has always been included in my profile (maintained on YOUR site) so I don’t know why you are accussing me of hiding behind a bogus handle.  The fact that I raise valid issues with the agreement and you minimize this by accusing me of trying to sway potential investors away from anyone is insulting and downright ignorant. 

            I have been an owner since 1990, have been running Partnerships since 2004 and unlike many of the larger outfits, I don’t chase potential Partners and 75% or more are either return Partners or referrals from existing Partners.  Also, I run no more than (4) active Partnerships at a time and since they have run for an average of over (3) years (some longer, some shorter), I form at most (1) new Partnerhsip per year.  And my stats speak for themselves but I don’t feel the need to self promote myself or my Partnerships on your forum.

            With all due respect Ray, my experience in the industry in far more extensive than yours so you have no reason or right to question my intentions.  You are quick to praise a new idea without looking at the obvious issues with the offering.  I have the experience to identify issues with an offering because I have seen many over the years, some good and some bad.

            Since this is a news and reporting site I was trying to offer an informed perspective rather than simply reacting to the prospect of owning an insignificant % of a Partnership for $10.  If you choose not to pursue this then that is your decision but promoting a concept based on excerpts from an S-1 is not fair to the readers on your site.

          • RayPaulick

            Thank you, Stewart.

          • James Staples

            STEW…U R A WAR HORSE!!!…ty…

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            And if you owned horses and tried to do business is MD you would know about Frank Stronach and the games he plays.  You would know that he promised MD a cash infusion to improve the industry and then pulled back completely when he screwed up and didn’t submit a a funded slot application.  You would know he tried to leverage the State to reduce MD to a 40 day meet so he could profit off Preakness while decimating the racing industry only to accept a deal at the last minute that would provide subsidies from the State.  And finally, you would know that he refused to use the same subsidies he said were required to operate just so he could pull the same BS again at the end of 2011 to get even more subsidies.  He has done absolutely nothing to improve MD racing and keeps holding the industry hostage in attempts to get more subsidies or get slots when it was HIS MISTAKE in the 1st place that resulted in the tracks being excluded from the slots approval process.

            Again, doing some research with people on the ground in MD would go a long way towards making reporting on this site about Stronach more credible.

      • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

        Ray, If you do talk to someone directly involved with the offering, here are a few questions I think are fair to ask: 1.  Simple math or a less confusing explanation of the following language in the S-1: ”Each of our independent directors who remains on our Board on the Distribution Date will be entitled to a fee equal to a percentage of our net assets available for distribution on the Distribution Date equal to 100% multiplied by (a) 4,000 divided by (b) the sum of (i) the number of shares of our common stock outstanding at such time plus (ii) the product of 4,000 multiplied by the number of such directors. 2.  Clarification of: ”compensation costs of approximately $1,150 per day for our chief executive officer and chief financial officer” vs. “employment agreements with Jack Brothers, our chief executive officer, providing for a $25,000 per annum salary, and with Lyle Strachan, our chief financial officer, providing for a $16,666.67 per annum salary”. 3.  Breakdown of costs for the following daily rate: “$150 per actively managed horse per day” It doesn’t matter if training, vet, blacksmith, vanning and tack are included….this number is significantly inflated (unless they can prove otherwise).    4.  Since the majority of horses are not ready to run early in their 2YO seasons and the majority of owners choose to give horses more time to develop before entering full training, what is the day rate for yearlings and 2YOs standing in a field.  This is not defined in the agreement and only “$150 per actively managed horse per day and $50 per horse per day for horses that have been retired whether or not they are being retrained for purposes other than racing” is defined in the agreement. 5.  Are all horses broken and trained at Adena Springs properties before being transferred to a particular track for final training before racing?  And if the answer is yes, what is the day rate charged to owners (outside of these offerings) that pay for the same breaking and training services? I have more questions but this is a good start.

  • McGov

    We need 100 more Stronachs and 1000 less armchair critics that poison this kind of optimistic momentum.

  • RayPaulick

    You are so right, McGov. The  S-1 registration statements, which anyone can read, clearly spell out the risk factors in this as an investment, and there are many.

    One thing I’ve learned, sadly, is that this game is full of knockers.

    The S-1′s are not permitted to extol the virtues of this idea, which are to bring people closer to the game, to get them excited about what it’s like to “own” a racehorse, to learn about racing. The racing clubs in Japan, to which the Stronach ventures can be compared, have been phenomenally successful and people who are members do not get involved because it’s a great investment. In fact, the Japan racing clubs lease the horses from breeders, so if one of the horses in the club wins a G1 race and becomes a high-priced stallion or broodmare prospect, the club members do not share any of the upside of the residual value.

    One of the neat things about the racing clubs is how the various members are invited to farms to see the horses they have invested in before they are sent to the training centers to begin their racing careers, to get together for social occasions around major races their horses may be participating in, and getting regular updates from the club administrators.  I hope this is something Stronach’s associates will consider, though SEC rules are very strict and the corporations have to be careful to follow all SEC rules in all interactions with investors.

  • Bellwether

    ONE MO TIME…PURE BULL $HEET TO JONMAYER28!!!…HAPPY 2012…

  • Bellwether

    ONE MO TIME…PURE BULL $HEET TO JONMAYER28!!!…HAPPY 2012…

  • SMZ

    I am definitely in.  This is great.  I am always amused at the volume of haters on Frank. I guess, regardless of how he runs HIS business, I am grateful that he has, and continues to pour the amount of money and resources in to the industry.  Did anyone notice the amount of money he spent on horses since last August alone?  He is great for this industry, and I applaud his continual efforts to make it work and keep it viable.  If we can’t applaud success and celebrate winning, we will never be successful ourselves. I don’t know Frank, have never met him, but I think he is a tremendous asset to thoroughbred racing for his innovation and determination.  My hat is off to him as well as to Wayne Hughes, another great asset to the industry.

    • Cynthia McGinnes

      Excuse me, but have you noticed that Stronach has devoted a great deal of time and money in the last five years in trying to destroy the MD racing and breeding industry? You do a great disservice to Wayne Hughes in comparing him to Stronach. Before you make a statement such as you did, you need to be better informed about the severe damage Stronach has done to Maryland racing.

      • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

        Cynthia,

        We are just armchair critics, what do we know?

  • SMZ

    I am definitely in.  This is great.  I am always amused at the volume of haters on Frank. I guess, regardless of how he runs HIS business, I am grateful that he has, and continues to pour the amount of money and resources in to the industry.  Did anyone notice the amount of money he spent on horses since last August alone?  He is great for this industry, and I applaud his continual efforts to make it work and keep it viable.  If we can’t applaud success and celebrate winning, we will never be successful ourselves. I don’t know Frank, have never met him, but I think he is a tremendous asset to thoroughbred racing for his innovation and determination.  My hat is off to him as well as to Wayne Hughes, another great asset to the industry.

  • Allengregory522

    Fools and their money are soon departed

  • Allengregory522

    Fools and their money are soon departed

  • Ken

    IS THIS RIGHT??  Help me out here…
     
    Taken from ONE of the SIX new corporation filings under “Capitalization” section.
     
    “Beginning on December 23, 2011, we started to expense compensation costs of approximately $1,150 PER DAY for our chief executive officer and chief financial officer.
     
    The exact same section appears in EACH of the six filings. Each corporation has filed with the same CEO and CFO.
     
     IF this is correct, the overall compensation packages for  JACK BROTHERS and LYLE STRACHAN is $34,500 per month times SIX corps or $207,000 per month ??
    $2,484,000 per year for these executives for a un-proven corporation in a notoriously unprofitable business!
     
    Please tell me I have read this wrong!!! 
     
    How can this work out as a profittable venture if the are unrealistic about executive compensation from the beginning.
     
    I REALLY HOPE I AM WRONG !!
     
     
     
     

    • Buglet

      Hey Ray, could you pry yourself away from your Twitter account and look into this?

      If true, then this level of compensation is terrible.

    • RayPaulick

      I am little confused on this. You would be correct with your math, but in  management section of S-1 (page 45) there is this statement:

      “We plan to enter into
      employment agreements with Jack Brothers, our chief executive officer,
      providing for a $25,000 per annum salary, and with Lyle
      Strachan, our chief financial officer, providing for a $16,666.67 per
      annum salary. The term of each employment agreement will end on the
      earlier of June 30, 2014 and the Distribution Date. Each employment
      agreement will contain a provision
      prohibiting the solicitation of our officers and employees and those of
      Golden Pegasus during our operating period.”That would suggest annual salaries of $150,000 and $100,000 for the CEO and CFO (when all six corporations are included). Perhaps there is unstated bonus compensation that makes up the difference.

      • Buglet

        Thanks, but I am really confused. Perhaps you could ask Jack Brothers, or the other guy, for clarification on this issue.

        Happy New Year!

    • Tres Abogados Stupidos

      This is easy to figure out.  Stronach has found a way to let others pay for guys he already has on the payroll.  Brilliant (but typical sleezy) move.

    • LongTimeEconomist

      There are probably other people on the payroll that are needed to do a lot of the day to day bookkeeping and administrative work.

    • Steve Zorn

      I know Jack Brothers, and he’s a good guy, so if he makes a little money out of this insane venture and gets to retire with enough to live on — something that a lot of folks in the business never do — more power to him. Just hope he has lots of Stronach-provided liability insurance.

  • Ken

    IS THIS RIGHT??  Help me out here…
     
    Taken from ONE of the SIX new corporation filings under “Capitalization” section.
     
    “Beginning on December 23, 2011, we started to expense compensation costs of approximately $1,150 PER DAY for our chief executive officer and chief financial officer.
     
    The exact same section appears in EACH of the six filings. Each corporation has filed with the same CEO and CFO.
     
     IF this is correct, the overall compensation packages for  JACK BROTHERS and LYLE STRACHAN is $34,500 per month times SIX corps or $207,000 per month ??
    $2,484,000 per year for these executives for a un-proven corporation in a notoriously unprofitable business!
     
    Please tell me I have read this wrong!!! 
     
    How can this work out as a profittable venture if the are unrealistic about executive compensation from the beginning.
     
    I REALLY HOPE I AM WRONG !!
     
     
     

  • terrang

    I can remember buying into Spendthrift farm – and losing it all.

    I can remember buying into Santa Anita Companies and the company disappeared after the Strub relatives borrowed money and missed repayments and Apollo Group moved in to take it over and strip away the paired REIT arrangement.

    I can remember buying a few shares when Stronach’s magna entertainment was on its last legs – but after all didin’t the inside directors buy shares at the same time too? How hard did Stronach work to save outside investors then? he let them get wiped out then he bought up the wreckage for pennies …. one reason why fiduciaires should not be allowed to buy their own wreckage.

    Best of all, I remember four days ago when my daughter and I went to Red and Jerry’s in suburban Denver and she liked an 80 to 1 shot at Santa Anita and let me in on the bet and we turned $2 into $160 – without having let a guy like Stronach manage our investmenf for us.

    Buy into Stronach’s stabel if you want…. but if it falls on hard times Stronach will look after himself first. 

    Mt opinion.  Try to control your horse investment as much as you can.  Let the losses be yours and not engineered by the fiduciaries you turn your money over to.  Or pick managers who have not taken  companies into bankruptcy and then walked away with the company for themselves….

  • terrang

    I can remember buying into Spendthrift farm – and losing it all.

    I can remember buying into Santa Anita Companies and the company disappeared after the Strub relatives borrowed money and missed repayments and Apollo Group moved in to take it over and strip away the paired REIT arrangement.

    I can remember buying a few shares when Stronach’s magna entertainment was on its last legs – but after all didin’t the inside directors buy shares at the same time too? How hard did Stronach work to save outside investors then? he let them get wiped out then he bought up the wreckage for pennies …. one reason why fiduciaires should not be allowed to buy their own wreckage.

    Best of all, I remember four days ago when my daughter and I went to Red and Jerry’s in suburban Denver and she liked an 80 to 1 shot at Santa Anita and let me in on the bet and we turned $2 into $160 – without having let a guy like Stronach manage our investmenf for us.

    Buy into Stronach’s stabel if you want…. but if it falls on hard times Stronach will look after himself first. 

    Mt opinion.  Try to control your horse investment as much as you can.  Let the losses be yours and not engineered by the fiduciaries you turn your money over to.  Or pick managers who have not taken  companies into bankruptcy and then walked away with the company for themselves….

  • Buglet

    Hey Ray, could you pry yourself away from your Twitter account and look into this?

    If true, then this level of compensation is terrible.

  • RayPaulick

    I am little confused on this. You would be correct with your math, but in  management section of S-1 (page 45) there is this statement:

    “We plan to enter into
    employment agreements with Jack Brothers, our chief executive officer,
    providing for a $25,000 per annum salary, and with Lyle
    Strachan, our chief financial officer, providing for a $16,666.67 per
    annum salary. The term of each employment agreement will end on the
    earlier of June 30, 2014 and the Distribution Date. Each employment
    agreement will contain a provision
    prohibiting the solicitation of our officers and employees and those of
    Golden Pegasus during our operating period.”That would suggest annual salaries of $150,000 and $100,000 for the CEO and CFO (when all six corporations are included). Perhaps there is unstated bonus compensation that makes up the difference.

  • Tres Abogados Stupidos

    This is easy to figure out.  Stronach has found a way to let others pay for guys he already has on the payroll.  Brilliant (but typical sleezy) move.

  • Tallstar2006

    A sucker born every minute  as they say - here’s a man that has lost hundred’s of millions investing in racetracks and now comes out with over-priced junk in the form of a security. God help us all as Tiny Tim would say.

    • LongTimeEconomist

      But the hundreds of millions he has lost in the Magna racing companies was about 95% other people’s money, as he had very little of his money in them. (Source:SEC filings of the various entities.)

    • Bellwether

      & THERES A A$$ FORE EVERY SEAT!!!…ty…

  • Tallstar2006

    A sucker born every minute  as they say - here’s a man that has lost hundred’s of millions investing in racetracks and now comes out with over-priced junk in the form of a security. God help us all as Tiny Tim would say.

  • Buglet

    Thanks, but I am really confused. Perhaps you could ask Jack Brothers, or the other guy, for clarification on this issue.

    Happy New Year!

  • Francis Bush

    The idea is great. However, the cost of vet fees continues to baffle. I owned a horse and had to pay for vitamins given to the horse. I wasn’t sure if the trainer or the manager of the syndicate decided about this matter. No one consulted me. When do horses need vitamins? What method is available to determine the need? Explanations are required. Francis Bush   

    • Ace

      All horses get vitamins, but I would suggest that most “vitamin charges” are already included in the $150/day training bill.  I would liken it to the airlines charging for the first bag you check in

    • Bob

      A $25 CBC, complete blood count,  For the most part determines what your horse does or doesnt need.  The one reading that may come back normal but should still be focused on is Red Blood cells, anything to stimulate increase levels of red blood cells/hemaglobin levels should be considered, Oh, in a natural way, not a synthetic.   

  • Francis Bush

    The idea is great. However, the cost of vet fees continues to baffle. I owned a horse and had to pay for vitamins given to the horse. I wasn’t sure if the trainer or the manager of the syndicate decided about this matter. No one consulted me. When do horses need vitamins? What method is available to determine the need? Explanations are required. Francis Bush

  • LongTimeEconomist

    There are probably other people on the payroll that are needed to do a lot of the day to day bookkeeping and administrative work.

  • LongTimeEconomist

    Or he has bred them.

  • LongTimeEconomist

    But the hundreds of millions he has lost in the Magna racing companies was about 95% other people’s money, as he had very little of his money in them. (Source:SEC filings of the various entities.)

  • Bob

    $150 a day, $50 layups?  $100k put aside? for horses who were purchased for as little as $4k?  $1.8 million setup to train 6 horses???? You may as well call this a scam, cause you’re just lighting $10 bucks on fire.  When the horse wins, you wont even get enough money back to pay for a win picture. the point is to say I own .00001% of this horse? 

  • Bob

    $150 a day, $50 layups?  $100k put aside? for horses who were purchased for as little as $4k?  $1.8 million setup to train 6 horses???? You may as well call this a scam, cause you’re just lighting $10 bucks on fire.  When the horse wins, you wont even get enough money back to pay for a win picture. the point is to say I own .00001% of this horse?

  • roger

    Ray you like it so much….put up $25k and write a journal each month so we can follow your investment.

    • RayPaulick

      Roger…

      I’ll be happy to buy some shares, not with any expectation for a return on investment but as a show of support for the concept.

      • tfly

        Why would anyone buy even one share with no expectation for a ROI, just to show support for the concept?   And why would the SEC ever let this go forward, given Stronach’s history?   Let’s not forget the hiring of relatives for a short period of time, then giving millions to them in severance, the ‘Wizard’ fiascos – millions to his son’s company, etc. etc.  jmo.

      • Steve Zorn

        Sorry to disagree, Ray, but it’s an awful concept. No expectation of a profit, huge charges off the top, no real “racetrack experience” for shareholders. And Stronach’s track record of leaving investors holding the bag. What’s to like?

        • RayPaulick

          Steve,

          I’m not sure any partnership offers an “expectation of profit.”  Most warn investors right from the start they shouldn’t be investing money they can’t afford to lose, as you know. I would think the enormity of taking this thing public cost a great deal in legal fees.

          My biggest concern with it, as you have mentioned and others have, too, especially in regards to previous Adena partnerships, is the lack of a “racetrack experience” for partners. As I’ve mentioned, the Japanese model is very similar: no expectation of profit, high overhead, but low entry fees for a very small percentage. That model offers perks and social opportunities for club members.

          I hope Jack Brothers and others involved here have someone on-staff communicating with investors regularly and trying to come up with special promotions and social gatherings.

  • roger

    Ray you like it so much….put up $25k and write a journal each month so we can follow your investment.

  • Promoter

    Thanks for pointing that out Csz.  It is a total rip off plus those unbelievable administrative fees.  This is not a nice thought, but rather a CYA for Stronach.  How about the stewards of the industry try to do this without a profit motive.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Excuse me, but have you noticed that Stronach has devoted a great deal of time and money in the last five years in trying to destroy the MD racing and breeding industry? You do a great disservice to Wayne Hughes in comparing him to Stronach. Before you make a statement such as you did, you need to be better informed about the severe damage Stronach has done to Maryland racing.

  • RayPaulick

    Roger…

    I’ll be happy to buy some shares, not with any expectation for a return on investment but as a show of support for the concept.

  • Ace

    All horses get vitamins, but I would suggest that most “vitamin charges” are already included in the $150/day training bill.  I would liken it to the airlines charging for the first bag you check in

  • Satchel

    Barry, that’s why it’s much better to post anonymously…no caveats or corrections are then necessary !!!

    Thanks, though, for posting sans nom de guerre.

  • Nina

    I still can’t believe he sold Ginger Punch.

  • Nina

    I still can’t believe he sold Ginger Punch.

  • CVFRacing

    Gina: you’re right, as usual. Even in NY, where I race, the day rate is US$90, and my average vet and farrier bills ad $15 a month to that. And NY is the most expensive place to race in the US. Just one of many rip-offs that are visible if one reads the S-1 carefully.

  • Steve Zorn

    And how, exactly, does Frank plan to raise $4 million times six trading privately?

  • terrang

    The beauty of the prospectus is that all the rip off prices are fully disclosed so the “sophisticated investors” who hand over their money to Stronach can’t sue him later. 

  • terrang

    The beauty of the prospectus is that all the rip off prices are fully disclosed so the “sophisticated investors” who hand over their money to Stronach can’t sue him later.

  • Steve Zorn

    I know Jack Brothers, and he’s a good guy, so if he makes a little money out of this insane venture and gets to retire with enough to live on — something that a lot of folks in the business never do — more power to him. Just hope he has lots of Stronach-provided liability insurance.

  • terrang

    Another option for you plungers is to go it alone.  I noticed a few months ago a broodmare prospect that had won 100K sold for a thousand at a Texas sale.  If you are patient you can pick up some mare prospects with some racing ability cheap.  And then subscribe to the Backyard Racehorse forum.  Keep your costs lower than the average….  And just have fun first….

  • terrang

    Another option for you plungers is to go it alone.  I noticed a few months ago a broodmare prospect that had won 100K sold for a thousand at a Texas sale.  If you are patient you can pick up some mare prospects with some racing ability cheap.  And then subscribe to the Backyard Racehorse forum.  Keep your costs lower than the average….  And just have fun first….

  • terrang

    Pattie, it might be tougher to do today.  but about 20 years ago I bought a horse a week before he was born for a grand in Utah. Grandson of Honest Pleasure.   Formed a four share syndicate among relatives and friends.  In those days we could board a horse at the breeder’s place for $75 a month.  We eventually sent him to Lynda Tanner in Arizona and to I think a trainer called Painer in Wyomng.  Though a may foal, he qualified for both Wyoming Downs futurities and eventually broke his maiden at age 4 at Turf Paradise.  Our indvidual costs back then were about five or six hundred a year.  (Even though Wyoming Downs went bankrupt and stiffed us for a thousand dollars in winnings.)  

    I know it is tougher to do this now…but if you have several friends.    this is more fun and more hands on than turning money over to Stronach.  I also bought into two Karakorum partnerships for a few hundred bucks and a few dollars a month for a half percent share. One filly, Fly with Karakorum, won over 200K and was their Xmas card cover girl. It was fun to see her develop from a gangly two year old into a tough New York bred allowance horse.  The other, Karakorum Tuxedo, broke his maiden at something like 40 to 1 but when I tried to bet in Colorado on the race I was shut out because it was a mandated dark day that day in Colorado for N. Y. racing.  He was claimed from us early on but went on to win over 200K also.  Though Karakorum accounting was not too transparent and for the little half or one share owners, it was just fun money. Though fly after a while did not cost much for maintenance… though we were charged for the winning videos and color photos. 
      Look into Racing Naton and their partnerships.  Or a few other low cost partnership schemes.   Wasn/t there a horse that placed in a classic a year or two ago and then shipped to England to run. And its owners chipped in three hundred bucks each to buy this horse.  You really don’t need Stronach.
      Anyway, sometimes some of us syndicate members in Utah would visit the farm and see the yearlings  play and one time we had to scramble up the rail fence when they thundered into the pen at feeding time.  Try to get that kind of experience… Go to a local track and see your horse work in the morning….

  • Southern Points Stable Inc

    Happy New Year please check out our website we have very reasonable prices where you could see a profit!!! Enjoy http://www.southernpointsstable.webs….

  • Real Quiet

    Thanks Ray for sharing.

    Frank Stronach continues to be creative and finds new ways to get new people into the thoroughbred industry. If successful, could be another way to expand the pie. Good luck to the connections.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    He never could and even if he found many investors willing to pool significant money, he would have to deal with the accredited investor guidelines.

    This idea is horrible on so many levels and since people can read the filing papers you only have yourselves to blame if you invest.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Sure, he can potentially get people in for $10 a piece who are then pissed off and turn against ownership because this is being sold as a profit making investment.  This is about Frank making money and being able to run horses on someone else’s dime…nothing more and nothing less.

  • Bellwether

    & THERES A A$$ FORE EVERY SEAT!!!…ty…

  • tfly

    Why would anyone buy even one share with no expectation for a ROI, just to show support for the concept?   And why would the SEC ever let this go forward, given Stronach’s history?   Let’s not forget the hiring of relatives for a short period of time, then giving millions to them in severance, the ‘Wizard’ fiascos – millions to his son’s company, etc. etc.  jmo.

  • Steve Zorn

    Sorry to disagree, Ray, but it’s an awful concept. No expectation of a profit, huge charges off the top, no real “racetrack experience” for shareholders. And Stronach’s track record of leaving investors holding the bag. What’s to like?

  • Wait a While

    Is this the same Frank Stronach who ran MEC?

    I have shares of MEC which are no more than printed paper.

    Frank S owns Santa Anita, Gulfstream, GGF etc outright himself.

    • Steve Zorn

      I actually made a small profit on my 100 shares of MEC. Guess I was one of the lucky ones. I even sold our house in Miami for a profit. :)

      But, to use a term of art, Frank either is or has the appearance of being, a ganef. http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/

      • Wait a While

        When MEC went BK there was value in the real estate. Did shareholders have any value? No

        Frank S ended up with it all..

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

        Steve – thanks for the link to the dictionary.  It is a very neat site.

        Don Reed

      • Merasmag

        this link is know help @all tyvm

  • Wait a While

    Is this the same Frank Stronach who ran MEC?

    I have shares of MEC which are no more than printed paper.

    Frank S owns Santa Anita, Gulfstream, GGF etc outright himself.

  • Steve Zorn

    I actually made a small profit on my 100 shares of MEC. Guess I was one of the lucky ones. I even sold our house in Miami for a profit. :)

    But, to use a term of art, Frank either is or has the appearance of being, a ganef. http://www.yiddishdictionaryon

  • Wait a While

    When MEC went BK there was value in the real estate. Did shareholders have any value? No

    Frank S ended up with it all..

  • Nextwave

    Ray and others,
     
    Please think clearly for one-minute and follow the money. I cant find one part of this that benefits the investor or “owner” in any way. This has all been set up to help Frank/Adena and Entities cover his existing overhead whether it is with Management Staff or Adena the farm itself.
     
    1.) They have 80 horses at Adena where they are using the existing staff to break, train and prep these horses to get ready for the track. According to the prospectus that is $360,000 per month for probably the next 8-10 months going straight to Adena for them to cover the existing Farm overhead. (Thats Smart) $3M -4M back to Stronach here, i would be interested to see what Adena is actually charging as it does not say. All I know is they are charging $150.00 a day per horse whether the horse is laid up at the farm or in full race training. Thats nice.

    2.) Management fee, salaries, etc all going to exisitng Stronach Management. This part is a little confusing but it looks like another few hundred thousand a year here.

    3.) Roughly 30% of the amount of money invested goes to the actual horse purchase itself and 25-35% flows back to Stronach controlled entities to get the horses to the races and approximatly 10% goes to existing Stronach Management. So the balance of about 25% I guess goes to pay the trainers and all related expenses once and if the horse actually makes it to the track. Oh yea, once the horse is retired due to injury then it is charged $50.00 a day.  

    Things like this are what make it so hard to get new people involved in ownership, this has a zero chance of success.

     

    • Buglet

      Excellent analysis.

      What I initially thought was a good idea, now turns out to be a money scam.

    • Shannon

      YOU ARE SPENDING $10 A SHARE!!! YOU AREN’T GOING TO MAKE ANY MONEY!! This isn’t a financial investment like a stock so stop thinking that way. Your view of this, although mathematically may be sound, and it appears you’ve taken some time to analyze it, is off based on the intent of the business. For those interested in getting involved this is an investment in doing something fun, having a little skin in the game, an investment in an education (for cheap!) What do you care if he makes money? That’s what you are supposed to do when you come up with an original idea!!! I can’t fathom why you think someone in business shouldn’t make a profit? He’s also putting dollars through the sales companies and providing jobs in the industry. How is this wrong?!!

      • Nextwave

        Shannon,

        If you think he has any other intent than helping his existing businesses cover payroll and its existing overhead you need to wake up. Please dont put words in my mouth as I never said someone in Buisness shouldnt make a profit. 

        I am more concerned about new owners finaly making a decision to get into ownership and thinking this is the way ownership is.

  • Nextwave

    Ray and others,
     
    Please think clearly for one-minute and follow the money. I cant find one part of this that benefits the investor or “owner” in any way. This has all been set up to help Frank/Adena and Entities cover his existing overhead whether it is with Management Staff or Adena the farm itself.
     
    1.) They have 80 horses at Adena where they are using the existing staff to break, train and prep these horses to get ready for the track. According to the prospectus that is $360,000 per month for probably the next 8-10 months going straight to Adena for them to cover the existing Farm overhead. (Thats Smart) $3M -4M back to Stronach here, i would be interested to see what Adena is actually charging as it does not say. All I know is they are charging $150.00 a day per horse whether the horse is laid up at the farm or in full race training. Thats nice.

    2.) Management fee, salaries, etc all going to exisitng Stronach Management. This part is a little confusing but it looks like another few hundred thousand a year here.

    3.) Roughly 30% of the amount of money invested goes to the actual horse purchase itself and 25-35% flows back to Stronach controlled entities to get the horses to the races and approximatly 10% goes to existing Stronach Management. So the balance of about 25% I guess goes to pay the trainers and all related expenses once and if the horse actually makes it to the track. Oh yea, once the horse is retired due to injury then it is charged $50.00 a day.  

    Things like this are what make it so hard to get new people involved in ownership, this has a zero chance of success.

     

  • Backontop

    The only winner here will be Stronach his friends and family! Find it hard to believe Ray Paulick supports this guy with his past history, amazing!

  • Backontop

    The only winner here will be Stronach his friends and family! Find it hard to believe Ray Paulick supports this guy with his past history, amazing!

  • Rjt

    The very best reference would be to consult the people that invested in the previous Adena Racing Ventures.  As they can tell you, although the investment was significantly higher, the structure was such that no reasonable expectation of return could be expected.  Still, the main purpose for many was the purported personal involvement with a select group of horses that would nurture and encourage support for the sport.  There was no return on involvement unless the individual member sought out information on their own.  The only individuals that were privy to information were those at the very top of the pyramid.  Rather than encouraging participation, implied discouragement was the norm.  Ultimately, it turned people away from future involvement in partnerships rather than fostering the desire for further involvement.

    • Buglet

      The worst thing you could do, would be to give the impression of being “aloof,” and NOT communicating with your investors.

      I could not think of a better way to permanently lose a client.

  • Rjt

    The very best reference would be to consult the people that invested in the previous Adena Racing Ventures.  As they can tell you, although the investment was significantly higher, the structure was such that no reasonable expectation of return could be expected.  Still, the main purpose for many was the purported personal involvement with a select group of horses that would nurture and encourage support for the sport.  There was no return on involvement unless the individual member sought out information on their own.  The only individuals that were privy to information were those at the very top of the pyramid.  Rather than encouraging participation, implied discouragement was the norm.  Ultimately, it turned people away from future involvement in partnerships rather than fostering the desire for further involvement.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kim-Glass/100002075998319 Kim Glass

    Ring, Ring….Bernie Madoff called, he wants Frank to stop stealing his ideas.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kim-Glass/100002075998319 Kim Glass

    Ring, Ring….Bernie Madoff called, he wants Frank to stop stealing his ideas.

  • Bob

    A $25 CBC, complete blood count,  For the most part determines what your horse does or doesnt need.  The one reading that may come back normal but should still be focused on is Red Blood cells, anything to stimulate increase levels of red blood cells/hemaglobin levels should be considered, Oh, in a natural way, not a synthetic.

  • Buglet

    Excellent analysis.

    What I initially thought was a good idea, now turns out to be a money scam.

  • Jay

    Ray, remember July 3,2007 article “Stables and Stability”? Hopefully you and the C.H.R.B. will rediscover your spines and quit lauding this Austrian anathema to the industry.

    • RayPaulick

      Yes, I do. You know how to hurt a guy, Jay.

      Here’s the commentary: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/39600/commentary–stables-and-stability

      Now that Stronach doesn’t have to worry about shareholders, maybe he’ll make good on that promise to upgrade the Santa Anita stable area. I won’t hold my breath.

      I don’t think everything he does is necessarily bad. Maybe I’m naive, but I see this new venture as a way to get more people interested in the process of owning Thoroughbreds.

      • Karen Worthington

        Ray-While I agree with you that getting people more interested in Thoroughbred ownership is good for the racing industry, it doesn’t look to me as though Mr. Stronach’s offering has that goal or could possibly have that effect.

        Certainly, partnerships can be a way for people to become involved in an affordable way.  What people need to understand is that the Return On the Investment (ROI) is not always financial.  There are numerous racehorse-owning partnerships structured to give non-financial returns that have a subjective value, such as visiting the animal, receiving communication from the connections, etc. I think it is those “emotional” returns that can bind a person to the industry, thus creating a stronger base for racing.

        I have seen partnership offerings touting the “thrill of being in the winners circle!” and, while I’m sure that’s the ultimate goal for any owner, many would be satisfied with a “return” of feeling that they were truly a part of the whole picture.  The Japanese “racing clubs” you mentioned sound as though they do just that, while Mr. Stronach’s offering seems to me to go to every possible length to keep the investor out of the frame entirely.

        I have been thinking that there might be a place in the racing industry for some, “pre-partnership counseling,” to help people identify their goals in becoming involved.  Maybe the time is now?

      • Tom

        Ray,

        Yes, you are being naive.  In a general sense, I completely agree that the partnership process is key to getting more people involved in racing.  But Frank’s way simply is not the way to do it.  Frankly, I see it as possibly doing more harm to those who get involved in his ventures and having a reverse effect by driving people away.

        Just like Stewart, I have been a partnership manager in MD for over 10 years.  The one thing that sets me apart from most is that I do not charge any management fees.  There are no mark-ups.  I buy my units of ownership just as everyone else does.  I make nothing unless everyone else makes something, and that’s only based on my % of ownership.  Admin costs include win photos, stamps, photo mailers, and that’s about it.  I do monthly financial reports that details every check I write so everyone knows exactly where the money is being spent and how much we have on hand at any given time.

        Partnerships like mine are the way to get more people involved because IT GETS THEM INVOLVED!!!.  My partners come to the track, they go in the paddock, they stand in the win circle photos, they talk to our trainer, they participate in the claim process, they receive weekly email updates, etc., etc. etc.  And through all of this, my latest partnership has managed to turn a profit for 3 of the last 4 years by claiming and racing horses that we’ve never spent more than $12.5k on.

        Yet, I couldn’t find many to get involved in any new partnership I would want to start today because I would want to race in MD.  Frank has destroyed MD racing which makes it very unattractive for any potential new partner to come into the fold.  How do I market MD racing to anyone?  If a new prospective owner asked me if I thought MD will race next year, what would I tell them?  If I were asked if purses will be going up soon, I’d have to tell them no and then try to explain that Frank took all the extra purse money from slots that was slated to boost purses this year just so we could run enough dates in 2012 to make it feasible to even stay in the state.

        Is Frank the kind of guy I want to give money to to be in his partnership?  Absolutely not.  Do I like the idea of getting more people involved?  Absolutely!!

        If you want to tout partnerships, then look at the ones like Stewart’s and mine.  We don’t give people a paper dream, we provide an exciting reality.

         

  • Jay

    Ray, remember July 3,2007 article “Stables and Stability”? Hopefully you and the C.H.R.B. will rediscover your spines and quit lauding this Austrian anathema to the industry.

  • RayPaulick

    Yes, I do. You know how to hurt a guy, Jay.

    Here’s the commentary: http://www.bloodhorse.com/hors

    Now that Stronach doesn’t have to worry about shareholders, maybe he’ll make good on that promise to upgrade the Santa Anita stable area. I won’t hold my breath.

    I don’t think everything he does is necessarily bad. Maybe I’m naive, but I see this new venture as a way to get more people interested in the process of owning Thoroughbreds.

  • Buglet

    The worst thing you could do, would be to give the impression of being “aloof,” and NOT communicating with your investors.

    I could not think of a better way to permanently lose a client.

  • Don Reed

    Mr. Bankrupt wants to sell MORE stock.

    We stopped playing Monopoly a long time ago, but I still have the box.

    Allow me to pay for this stock with what’s in the box. 

  • Don Reed

    Mr. Bankrupt wants to sell MORE stock.

    We stopped playing Monopoly a long time ago, but I still have the box.

    Allow me to pay for this stock with what’s in the box.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    D: Shares have to have some value in order to be shorted.

    But not all is lost.

    This proposition will ultimately benefit the good citizens of Barcelona, Spain, where toilet paper is currently being rationed.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    “This game is full of knockers…”

    Ray, how on earth did this get past your anti-smut electronic sentries?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    “This game is full of knockers…”

    Ray, how on earth did this get past your anti-smut electronic sentries?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    An excellent post.  Wish there were more like them.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    An excellent post.  Wish there were more like them.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Ray,
     
    I suggest getting feedback from existing Adena Springs Partnership members before talking about visits to the farms, etc.  I obviously appreciate the concept of Partnerships (I run one) but don’t appreciate ludicrous markups and upfront profits hidden under “administrative fees”.  From the feedback I have read about Adena Springs Partnerships (albeit limited), the communication and interaction with Partners is weak on a much smaller scale so it is doubtful thousands of people buying in @ $10/share would get anything in the way of real participation.  And since Adena Springs is heavily involved in breeding, I think the likelihood of a conflict of interest is significant….”purchasing” horses from their stock.

    Most people that are against Stronach are not “armchair” critics.  Like me, they are involved in the game and have watched Stronach repeatedly say one thing and do another while further jeopardize our local industries.  Look at what he has done in MD over the last (2) years as a clear example of how Stronach really operates…broken promises and no real investment in the game (public record so please do not delete).

    If you want to buy 1/400,000 of a handful of horses when 25% of the offering is gone upfront to legal and “administrative” fees, operating expenses are marked up 2 times or more, there is a significant chance of conflict of interest and the offering is put together by someone with the record of Stronach, more power to you.  But let’s not pretend this is being done out of the goodness of his heart to get people involved in racing or that people will get even the slightest taste of what real horse ownership is when they are 1 of thousands of owners involved in a Partnership.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Cynthia,

    We are just armchair critics, what do we know?

  • Jay

    Considering all the  posts, I find it hard to believe you are still sticking to your guns.  I believe Rjt and Nextwave state it best.

  • Jay

    Considering all the  posts, I find it hard to believe you are still sticking to your guns.  I believe Rjt and Nextwave state it best.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Ray, If you do talk to someone directly involved with the offering, here are a few questions I think are fair to ask: 1.  Simple math or a less confusing explanation of the following language in the S-1: ”Each of our independent directors who remains on our Board on the Distribution Date will be entitled to a fee equal to a percentage of our net assets available for distribution on the Distribution Date equal to 100% multiplied by (a) 4,000 divided by (b) the sum of (i) the number of shares of our common stock outstanding at such time plus (ii) the product of 4,000 multiplied by the number of such directors. 2.  Clarification of: ”compensation costs of approximately $1,150 per day for our chief executive officer and chief financial officer” vs. “employment agreements with Jack Brothers, our chief executive officer, providing for a $25,000 per annum salary, and with Lyle Strachan, our chief financial officer, providing for a $16,666.67 per annum salary”. 3.  Breakdown of costs for the following daily rate: “$150 per actively managed horse per day” It doesn’t matter if training, vet, blacksmith, vanning and tack are included….this number is significantly inflated (unless they can prove otherwise).    4.  Since the majority of horses are not ready to run early in their 2YO seasons and the majority of owners choose to give horses more time to develop before entering full training, what is the day rate for yearlings and 2YOs standing in a field.  This is not defined in the agreement and only “$150 per actively managed horse per day and $50 per horse per day for horses that have been retired whether or not they are being retrained for purposes other than racing” is defined in the agreement. 5.  Are all horses broken and trained at Adena Springs properties before being transferred to a particular track for final training before racing?  And if the answer is yes, what is the day rate charged to owners (outside of these offerings) that pay for the same breaking and training services? I have more questions but this is a good start.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Sorry for the formatting, I had proper spacing but everything got compressed when I posted.  I will try again.

    Ray,
     
    If you do talk to someone directly involved with the offering, here are a few questions I think are fair to ask:

    1.  Simple math or a less confusing explanation of the following language in the S-1:

    “Each of our independent directors who remains on our Board on the Distribution Date will be entitled to a fee equal to a percentage of our net assets available for distribution on the Distribution Date equal to 100% multiplied by (a) 4,000 divided by (b) the sum of (i) the number of shares of our common stock outstanding at such time plus (ii) the product of 4,000 multiplied by the number of such directors.

    2.  Clarification of:

    “compensation costs of approximately $1,150 per day for our chief executive officer and chief financial officer” vs. “employment agreements with Jack Brothers, our chief executive officer, providing for a $25,000 per annum salary, and with Lyle Strachan, our chief financial officer, providing for a $16,666.67 per annum salary”.

    3.  Breakdown of costs for the following daily rate:

    “$150 per actively managed horse per day”

    It doesn’t matter if training, vet, blacksmith, vanning and tack are included….this number is significantly inflated (unless they can prove otherwise).

    4.  Since the majority of horses are not ready to run early in their 2YO seasons and the majority of owners choose to give horses more time to develop before entering full training, what is the day rate for yearlings and 2YOs standing in a field.  This is not defined in the agreement and only “$150 per actively managed horse per day and $50 per horse per day for horses that have been retired whether or not they are being retrained for purposes other than racing” is defined in the agreement.

    5.  Are all horses broken and trained at Adena Springs properties before being transferred to a particular track for final training before racing?  And if the answer is yes, what is the day rate charged to owners (outside of these offerings) that pay for the same breaking and training services?

    I have more questions but this is a good start.

  • Tdgdean602

    Franks an idiot

  • Don

    Did you people read it, amazing charges from the beginning

  • Don

    Did you people read it, amazing charges from the beginning

  • RayPaulick

    Stewart…

    I am reminded of the Shakespeare line that the lady doth protest too much.

    Maybe it doesn’t matter, but I’m wondering if you are in competition for the same potential investors this initial public offering might attract. If that’s the case, I would prefer you disclose that information or use your full name, as Steve Zorn has done.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    My name is Stewart Nickel and my URL has always been included in my profile (maintained on YOUR site) so I don’t know why you are accussing me of hiding behind a bogus handle.  The fact that I raise valid issues with the agreement and you minimize this by accusing me of trying to sway potential investors away from anyone is insulting and downright ignorant. 

    I have been an owner since 1990, have been running Partnerships since 2004 and unlike many of the larger outfits, I don’t chase potential Partners and 75% or more are either return Partners or referrals from existing Partners.  Also, I run no more than (4) active Partnerships at a time and since they have run for an average of over (3) years (some longer, some shorter), I form at most (1) new Partnerhsip per year.  And my stats speak for themselves but I don’t feel the need to self promote myself or my Partnerships on your forum.

    With all due respect Ray, my experience in the industry in far more extensive than yours so you have no reason or right to question my intentions.  You are quick to praise a new idea without looking at the obvious issues with the offering.  I have the experience to identify issues with an offering because I have seen many over the years, some good and some bad.

    Since this is a news and reporting site I was trying to offer an informed perspective rather than simply reacting to the prospect of owning an insignificant % of a Partnership for $10.  If you choose not to pursue this then that is your decision but promoting a concept based on excerpts from an S-1 is not fair to the readers on your site.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    And if you owned horses and tried to do business is MD you would know about Frank Stronach and the games he plays.  You would know that he promised MD a cash infusion to improve the industry and then pulled back completely when he screwed up and didn’t submit a a funded slot application.  You would know he tried to leverage the State to reduce MD to a 40 day meet so he could profit off Preakness while decimating the racing industry only to accept a deal at the last minute that would provide subsidies from the State.  And finally, you would know that he refused to use the same subsidies he said were required to operate just so he could pull the same BS again at the end of 2011 to get even more subsidies.  He has done absolutely nothing to improve MD racing and keeps holding the industry hostage in attempts to get more subsidies or get slots when it was HIS MISTAKE in the 1st place that resulted in the tracks being excluded from the slots approval process.

    Again, doing some research with people on the ground in MD would go a long way towards making reporting on this site about Stronach more credible.

  • RayPaulick

    Steve,

    I’m not sure any partnership offers an “expectation of profit.”  Most warn investors right from the start they shouldn’t be investing money they can’t afford to lose, as you know. I would think the enormity of taking this thing public cost a great deal in legal fees.

    My biggest concern with it, as you have mentioned and others have, too, especially in regards to previous Adena partnerships, is the lack of a “racetrack experience” for partners. As I’ve mentioned, the Japanese model is very similar: no expectation of profit, high overhead, but low entry fees for a very small percentage. That model offers perks and social opportunities for club members.

    I hope Jack Brothers and others involved here have someone on-staff communicating with investors regularly and trying to come up with special promotions and social gatherings.

  • RayPaulick

    Thank you, Stewart.

  • James Staples

    STEW…U R A WAR HORSE!!!…ty…

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    That’s the – well, you said it, not I – the opinion of one stupid lawyer.

    What say the other two?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ACQGIDCHCUG2OD4YQ6QQGTMWK4 Riposte

    Steve – thanks for the link to the dictionary.  It is a very neat site.

    Don Reed

  • http://www.facebook.com/one2bet Allan Goldberg

    Nice way for Frank to unload the goats unfit for Stronach Stables on the general (i.e. stupid) public. Here is my advise – you want to have an inexpensive rooting interest in the horse – BET ON IT!!!

    • Gallorette

      Allan – the horses were purchased at public auction.  Over $7 million at the yearling sales.  It’s great to weigh in – but you should be informed first.

      • Barbara

        You might want to do the same first Gal. Take a reading comprehension lesson or two while you’re at it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/one2bet Allan Goldberg

    Nice way for Frank to unload the goats unfit for Stronach Stables on the general (i.e. stupid) public. Here is my advise – you want to have an inexpensive rooting interest in the horse – BET ON IT!!!

  • Gallorette

    Allan – the horses were purchased at public auction.  Over $7 million at the yearling sales.  It’s great to weigh in – but you should be informed first.

  • Carrie

    great great idea! I am going to buy a couple of shares.

  • Carrie

    great great idea! I am going to buy a couple of shares.

  • Gallorette

    The prevailing negativity is baffling. Does anyone really think Frank Stronach is doing this to make money? He’s one of the industry insiders who continues to put up his own money.  One of the few involved in the direction of our sport who actually has his own skin in the game.  And let’s not forget, this is a self made man, who earned his own money. Stronach is obviously very passionate about the racing industry. His concern about clubbish exclusivity is well documented.
     
    From what I’ve read, this isn’t aimed at insiders; it is an opportunity for everyday fans to enter the business in an inexpensive and meaningful way. It’s obviously not meant as an investment for “widows and orphans” (see: http://247wallst.com/2011/12/28/an-offer-for-investing-in-racehorses-really/). I commend Larry Ensor, Jr. for identifying and articulating the concept with his analogy to the Green Bay Packers model.
     
    We can continue to stand on the sidelines and watch the downward spiral year after year (most recent report indicates 2011 is down another 7%), or we could encourage an enterprise that may very well create new fans and interest in our sport, as well as possibly capitalizing on all the social media available today.  There is also an immediate and substantially positive impact as a result of this project.  120 yearlings were purchased at public auction (over $7 million worth), benefiting breeders, consigners, and a myriad of other vendors involved in the racing industry. 
     Hopefully, our industry (and more importantly, others OUTSIDE our industry) will support this initiative; Stronach continues to step up to the plate in a big and innovative way. 

    • Glimmerglass

      To that point – do you really think Frank Stronach is doing this to LOSE money? I’m not begrudging the man if that’s his goal. I cannot think of anyone starting a partnership/syndicate with the intent to lose money, perhaps at best altruistically some may claim its ‘to have fun and break even’.

      Frank’s record of making money for himself and boosting his net worth is undeniable. Which is great if you’re Frank. It would be naive however to overlook that along that successful road his partners and minority shareholders haven’t always fared so well.  

      • Gallorette

        The goal here is obviously to create new interest in the sport and give fans an opportunity for involvment. If it benefits the industry, it benefits Stronach.  The common misconception throughout this blog, based on everyone’s math is that the offering sells out in its entirety.  Stronach will be the one to pick up the remaining shares (investing in his own investment).  He’s already invested over $7M and will have to put up millions more over the course of the project.  The Steve Zorn’s of the world are missing the point and should just go buy stock in Coca-Cola if all they want to see is ROI.  Do all other partnerships make money and are any of them attempting to be in full SEC compliance?

        • Steve Zorn

          I think you misinterpreted my comments. No one promoting promoting racing partnerships tells prospective partners that they’re going to make money. In fact, I and most others in the business tell them in bold-face type that they’re likely to lose money. But at least we offer them a good racetrack experience. And most of us don’t gouge the partners to the extent that Stronach’s offering would.

          • Gallorette

            I see your point, but this offering doesn’t appear to be promoting a hands-on owership expereince, and I just don’t see a one-time only $10 per share investment as gouging. There is a reason this model has worked in other countries and incidently, horse racing in those countries also seems to have a better presence.

    • James Staples

      HE NEEDS TO LISTEN FORE A CHANGE???…THEY HAVE A HARD TIME GET N A SURFACE RITE!!!…GMAFB…ty…

    • Steve Zorn

      “Does anyone really think Frank Stronach is doing this to make money?” You bet I do. That’s what Frank does, in every imaginable way and some that are beyond imagining.

  • Gallorette

    The prevailing negativity is baffling. Does anyone really think Frank Stronach is doing this to make money? He’s one of the industry insiders who continues to put up his own money.  One of the few involved in the direction of our sport who actually has his own skin in the game.  And let’s not forget, this is a self made man, who earned his own money. Stronach is obviously very passionate about the racing industry. His concern about clubbish exclusivity is well documented.
     
    From what I’ve read, this isn’t aimed at insiders; it is an opportunity for everyday fans to enter the business in an inexpensive and meaningful way. It’s obviously not meant as an investment for “widows and orphans” (see: http://247wallst.com/2011/12/2…. I commend Larry Ensor, Jr. for identifying and articulating the concept with his analogy to the Green Bay Packers model.
     
    We can continue to stand on the sidelines and watch the downward spiral year after year (most recent report indicates 2011 is down another 7%), or we could encourage an enterprise that may very well create new fans and interest in our sport, as well as possibly capitalizing on all the social media available today.  There is also an immediate and substantially positive impact as a result of this project.  120 yearlings were purchased at public auction (over $7 million worth), benefiting breeders, consigners, and a myriad of other vendors involved in the racing industry. 
     Hopefully, our industry (and more importantly, others OUTSIDE our industry) will support this initiative; Stronach continues to step up to the plate in a big and innovative way.

  • http://twitter.com/chiefdave777 David Sadler

    Nice Idea but I would not go into any business with Mr. S.  What sharholders get in the picture at the winners cirvle?

  • http://twitter.com/chiefdave777 David Sadler

    Nice Idea but I would not go into any business with Mr. S.  What sharholders get in the picture at the winners cirvle?

  • Glimmerglass

    To that point – do you really think Frank Stronach is doing this to LOSE money? I’m not begrudging the man if that’s his goal. I cannot think of anyone starting a partnership/syndicate with the intent to lose money, perhaps at best altruistically some may claim its ‘to have fun and break even’.

    Frank’s record of making money for himself and boosting his net worth is undeniable. Which is great if you’re Frank. It would be naive however to overlook that along that successful road his partners and minority shareholders haven’t always fared so well.

  • Gallorette

    The goal here is obviously to create new interest in the sport and give fans an opportunity for involvment. If it benefits the industry, it benefits Stronach.  The common misconception throughout this blog, based on everyone’s math is that the offering sells out in its entirety.  Stronach will be the one to pick up the remaining shares (investing in his own investment).  He’s already invested over $7M and will have to put up millions more over the course of the project.  The Steve Zorn’s of the world are missing the point and should just go buy stock in Coca-Cola if all they want to see is ROI.  Do all other partnerships make money and are any of them attempting to be in full SEC compliance?

  • Shannon

    I need to stop being surprised by how negative people are. This isn’t meant to get high income people into horse racing, they can do that for themselves. This isn’t meant to provide a payout to small time investors, the value of the share is too low to make a profit. However, it could potentially give a a MUCH larger audience an introduction and education into horse racing. It could potentially make horse racing part of our nation’s every day culture as it is in Europe. This is an opportunity to grow the business of horse racing and hopefully the exposure will bring more people to the track because they have a vested interest in a horse running and more people gambling which raises purses and gives us all a reason to continue running horses. I say promote it and let’s see if where it takes us. Are there obstacles, of course there are, but if we all stopped at the first obstacle we faced where would any of us be?

    • Backontop

      As you know in horse racing the term Past Performance holds great meaning. Talk to MECA shareholders and ask how they did with their shares in the Stonach Magna Corp. I personally know an individual that lost millions on his shares, however, Stronach, came out smelling like a rose! 

      Come to Santa Anita and let me show you all the (promised) backside improvements that have been done since Stronach has owed the place. That will take about 5 minutes and instead you’ll see the barns that blew down and all the roofs ripped off these dilapidated structures from the last winds.

      Give the guy a chance, PLEASE! I’ll go by past performance and give him NOTHING!

  • Shannon

    I need to stop being surprised by how negative people are. This isn’t meant to get high income people into horse racing, they can do that for themselves. This isn’t meant to provide a payout to small time investors, the value of the share is too low to make a profit. However, it could potentially give a a MUCH larger audience an introduction and education into horse racing. It could potentially make horse racing part of our nation’s every day culture as it is in Europe. This is an opportunity to grow the business of horse racing and hopefully the exposure will bring more people to the track because they have a vested interest in a horse running and more people gambling which raises purses and gives us all a reason to continue running horses. I say promote it and let’s see if where it takes us. Are there obstacles, of course there are, but if we all stopped at the first obstacle we faced where would any of us be?

  • David

    Racing is dramatically different today than only a dozen years ago.  It wasn’t until the very late 90’s that CDI and MEwhatever undertook m&a moves.  Enter Penn National and other casino operators and yesterday’s landscape and agenda seems Jurassic.  But if you concede the industry was destined to reshape you could do worse than guys like Stronach.  Yes, a fantasy game more than equity position ripe for abuse and unfulfilled expectations, but why not?

  • David

    Racing is dramatically different today than only a dozen years ago.  It wasn’t until the very late 90’s that CDI and MEwhatever undertook m&a moves.  Enter Penn National and other casino operators and yesterday’s landscape and agenda seems Jurassic.  But if you concede the industry was destined to reshape you could do worse than guys like Stronach.  Yes, a fantasy game more than equity position ripe for abuse and unfulfilled expectations, but why not?

  • Backontop

    As you know in horse racing the term Past Performance holds great meaning. Talk to MECA shareholders and ask how they did with their shares in the Stonach Magna Corp. I personally know an individual that lost millions on his shares, however, Stronach, came out smelling like a rose! 

    Come to Santa Anita and let me show you all the (promised) backside improvements that have been done since Stronach has owed the place. That will take about 5 minutes and instead you’ll see the barns that blew down and all the roofs ripped off these dilapidated structures from the last winds.

    Give the guy a chance, PLEASE! I’ll go by past performance and give him NOTHING!

  • Steve Zorn

    I think you misinterpreted my comments. No one promoting promoting racing partnerships tells prospective partners that they’re going to make money. In fact, I and most others in the business tell them in bold-face type that they’re likely to lose money. But at least we offer them a good racetrack experience. And most of us don’t gouge the partners to the extent that Stronach’s offering would.

  • Shannon

    YOU ARE SPENDING $10 A SHARE!!! YOU AREN’T GOING TO MAKE ANY MONEY!! This isn’t a financial investment like a stock so stop thinking that way. Your view of this, although mathematically may be sound, and it appears you’ve taken some time to analyze it, is off based on the intent of the business. For those interested in getting involved this is an investment in doing something fun, having a little skin in the game, an investment in an education (for cheap!) What do you care if he makes money? That’s what you are supposed to do when you come up with an original idea!!! I can’t fathom why you think someone in business shouldn’t make a profit? He’s also putting dollars through the sales companies and providing jobs in the industry. How is this wrong?!!

  • Liberalboxxi

    As a horse owner, this is a business model so bad that only Stronach would have the stones to try to pull it off.  A five grand investment nets you a .0011 of a 20 horse group which means your investment is not going to pay much even if a horse or horses in your group winds up being special.  Whether you invest 500 or 5000, your group of 20 has to earn 5 million just to get you back to even.  Basically, this is an all investment no return proposition because the cost of a public S corp offering drastically increases costs in what is already a cost prohibitive business and the operating costs built into the business model gouges the investors.  Anyone who wants to own part of a horse should do so through a private partnership which at least does not add costs related to incorporation and the public offering of stock as sources of cost expenditures.

    As a breeder, it is a good idea.  If fully implemented (which it won’t be) it creates a demand for 120 yearlings and the more bidders at an auction the better.

    As the owner of Adena Springs it is an incredibly great idea.  You keep 10% of 120 horses which increases your odds of owning horses that turn out to be great.  You also find other suckers to cover the over priced costs you are charging to maintain and race said horses; plus, you have gouged the rate charged for said services to the point that not only are you not paying anything for your share of the costs related to your 10% ownership.  In fact, you are even making a profit on the costs paid by the other shareholders and you collect it all up front and can carry it as an account payable.  Not only that, you also create a place to dump the yearlings produced by your stallions which you bid up at auction, thus inflating the costs for your shareholders while also inflating your stallions’ sales numbers. 

    Brilliant, P.T. Barnum brilliant, all you have to do is find enough suckers.  

        

  • Liberalboxxi

    As a horse owner, this is a business model so bad that only Stronach would have the stones to try to pull it off.  A five grand investment nets you a .0011 of a 20 horse group which means your investment is not going to pay much even if a horse or horses in your group winds up being special.  Whether you invest 500 or 5000, your group of 20 has to earn 5 million just to get you back to even.  Basically, this is an all investment no return proposition because the cost of a public S corp offering drastically increases costs in what is already a cost prohibitive business and the operating costs built into the business model gouges the investors.  Anyone who wants to own part of a horse should do so through a private partnership which at least does not add costs related to incorporation and the public offering of stock as sources of cost expenditures.

    As a breeder, it is a good idea.  If fully implemented (which it won’t be) it creates a demand for 120 yearlings and the more bidders at an auction the better.

    As the owner of Adena Springs it is an incredibly great idea.  You keep 10% of 120 horses which increases your odds of owning horses that turn out to be great.  You also find other suckers to cover the over priced costs you are charging to maintain and race said horses; plus, you have gouged the rate charged for said services to the point that not only are you not paying anything for your share of the costs related to your 10% ownership.  In fact, you are even making a profit on the costs paid by the other shareholders and you collect it all up front and can carry it as an account payable.  Not only that, you also create a place to dump the yearlings produced by your stallions which you bid up at auction, thus inflating the costs for your shareholders while also inflating your stallions’ sales numbers. 

    Brilliant, P.T. Barnum brilliant, all you have to do is find enough suckers.  

  • Gallorette

    I see your point, but this offering doesn’t appear to be promoting a hands-on owership expereince, and I just don’t see a one-time only $10 per share investment as gouging. There is a reason this model has worked in other countries and incidently, horse racing in those countries also seems to have a better presence.

  • Barbara

    You might want to do the same first Gal. Take a reading comprehension lesson or two while you’re at it.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    As one of the breeders in MD that has seen my own 40 year multi million dollar investment decimated by Stronach’s determination to kill our horse industry because the legislature didn’t give him slots, it makes me gag to read the positive reviews given this man by those who know nothing of his deception, his cruelty, his complete and utter self-absorption…he is the living epitome of Dickens’s SCROOGE… only worse. I am so disappointed in Ray Paulick’s  endorsement of his scheme to use public money to support his farms and training centers with horses he purchased and now needs to break and train. This experience will only discourage anyone who has the misfortune to  participate from ever going anywhere near a racetrack again.
    I have to say  to Ray that I feel personally betrayed…he is recommending to others a man that he well knows has lied,broken agreements, and deliberately damaged the MD horse industry to a point where it will never recover in my lifetime,if ever. There is no way that you can justify what Stronach has done to MD..NO WAY. We have 18 mares foaling this year…we are euthanizing 5 after they wean their foals, not breeding back 4 more. These are good mares,all winner-producers, some stakes winners and stakes producers, with only a little age on them. There is no market for MD breds..trainers want to be able to run where they can make money. All of the promised slots money is now going to Stronach just to keep the tracks open, although he is doing everything he can to keep bettors from coming just so he can keep losing money and demand more subsidies from our slots money.

    Frank Stronach does nothing that doesn’t benefit him first and only. Ray, may those who buy into these partnerships on your recommendation learn to forgive you, as you may not survive all their curses later. As a member of the MD horse industry that is being strangled to death by this man, I need to work on forgiving you as well.

    • Barbara

      I can’t feel sorry for you Cynthia, if you can’t even attempt to re-home the not aged mares you plan to euthanize after you take another cheap foal out of them. While I will give you a modicum of credit for choosing euthanasia over the unknown kill buyer for these mares you have no use for any longer – who were just factories to you it appears and I note you certainly thought things were “good enough” to breed them again last spring when they were really no different in MD than they are today – I find it hard to believe someone who had millions to spend for 40 years on the game can’t find a few thousand more to take care of each mare, or AT LEAST invest in re-training or re-HOMING them, just try.

      YOU are exactly what won’t be missed in this industry after Frank has finished it off.  18 mares, in MD?  W T F have you been drinking for YEARS?  And you plan to breed the lucky NINE back this year so you can create more unwanted horses for someone else to euthanize?? And then maybe off those mares in 2013? I am not even going to bother to try to forgive you. Ray, on the other hand, only bites off what he can chew, and has not recommended ANYTHING other than to have fun with a few worthless shares in a partnership. Rinse the bitter out of your mouth, Cynthia, and try some pink lemonade.

      • Cynthia McGinnes

        Why don’t you ask for the facts before you mouth off? These are not cheap mares….their foals are by Ky stallions such as Holy Bull, Big Brown, Pollard’s Vision, Stephen Got Even,Northern Afleet, Dixie Union. We have sold yearlings out of these mares at Saratoga for over $250,000. My husband and I started this farm in 1971 with only $5000 to spend and we have made our living from selling yearlings at the regional level, working hard, not having any money to invest that we didn’t earn in the business.We never stood a stallion for over $3500, and still have the honor of standing the only MD stallion, Horatius, that sired a Breeders Cup winner. We have been leading breeders in Md for many years, we do not breed cheap horses that nobody wants, we have bred many Md.Million winners( including one this year), and a Grade 1 winning Breeders Cup starter this year.The nine mares we are breeding this year are all SW,stakes producers, that will be bred to Ky stallions for the top of the market, as there is no regional market left for Md. breds, which is what I said. You criticize us for breeding 18 mares..this is OUR BUSINESS, this is how we make our living, we have employees that depend on us. We have made a decent living over the last 35 years, investing all the money we have earned back in the business..this is how most people who work in the horse industry do it.
        We have tried to find homes for these mares…nobody that we trust to care for them wants them. We have made our living as commercial breeders for 40 years, and our proud of our reputation in the business.We will not breed mares just to create  foals that can’t be sold at a small profit. We bred our mares last spring, thinking that Stronach would live up to his promise to invest in the tracks, hoping that the slots money he had held up for years would kick in and help our purses to pick up. How dare you make the staements you made about MD, when you obviously know absolutely nothing about the broken agreements that Stronach unleashed on us this summer.
        It is very sad that uninformed people such as yourself will criticize someone who has given her life to this business, and resents just a little bit that Frank Stronach is killing our industry because he seeks revenge against our state legislature for not giving him slots. Go ahead, let more people lose their money to this man,reward him for his deceptive ways. Ray Paulick doesn’t need an outsider such as you to defend him against my words…he knows very well who we are and our reputation built up over many years, even if you don’t.

        • Ace

          Your dedication to the industry is commendable.  Your honesty regarding the anticipated euthanasia of some of your mares is something most farm owners would never bring to light.
          Frank, on the other hand, has done nothing-NOTHING-except steal the racetracks he now owns from public investors via bankruptcy.
          To me it is quite shocking that Ray, who usually is on the correct side of an issue, would give lip service to an idea whose only purpose is to fleece more of the investing public.
          I am truly sorry about your mares, and hope that you can find a good home for them.

        • Merasmag

          why do u feel the need to euthanize these mares? better to abort the foals and keep whats already alive IMO

          • Barbara

            Kinda late for that. They might have been on NG fees with no motivation to abort to avoid cost of stud fee and the costs for raising the foals, too.

          • Merasmag

            after hours of reflection i have a sickening feeling i know who ms mcginnes is…as u have knot said u r euthanizing any mares i dknotcare who u r…

          • Barbara

            Finally:-)

        • Barbara

          Yeah an outsider such as me because I didn’t euthanize mares no longer useful to me and just cost me money? I never got in OVER my head. I KNOW EXACTLY who you are and have known, I will give you credit for always posting your whiny, often misinformed when a comment on anything but MD, always biased messages here under your full name. And you are a blight on the industry IMO based on your posts here today, a bitter one at that. Get out if it is over for you. Make it a last legacy to find them homes. Nothing you have done (including having family money to buy a farm in the first place per your own quotes in news reports) that is good in 40 years is outweighed by your public plea to get a pat on the back for transferring all of your responsibility to these horses that “earned” you such a living to Mr. Stronach.

          So you thought magically that Frank would right the ship in a year’s time in MD? Really? As for no one decent enough to take your horses, you mean you are worried they might not have a farm of their own, and land, that would make it easier to care for them since none of this is their fault? Or are you quite concerned they might fall into the wrong hands who will kill them when they are of no use, but not quite the way you have in mind? I don’t doubt you take good care of them while they live, and again, let me laud you for choosing euthanasia to “lay off” your workers so to speak. Guess you can cut the staff with half as many horses, too.

          All you did was defend yourself in an egotistical self serving rant and you clearly only see horses as they reflect on YOU, not as they ARE. You admit to the good living they provided you and then you can’t give them a home when times have been heading THIS way for a variety of reasons, and not JUST FRANK’S obvious misdeeds in MD, for a very long time. Frank needs to make a living too, Ms. Good Rep. Of course now you’ll be on the hook when the rescues contact you about these mares, but I bet that was the plan all along, Cynthia. That or you are so honest you are just crazy. Why did you announce you were euthanizing the mares, to cleanse your soul or to bait a response?

          As for Ray, no, he hardly needs defense for anything he says or ever looks for it. And I hardly defended him since your rant about “forgiving” him was so off the chart and self referenced in the first place. He’ll probably feel sorry for Ms. 40 Years and defend you to me here. Wait.

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            Barbara ???  Who are you?

          • Barbara

            My name is Barbara. I gather your name is Stewart?

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            Cute Barbara.  If you are going to sling so much mud at someone you might as well use your full name and disclose your position in the industry.

            I am not defending Cynthia and don’t want to get anywhere near that discussion.

            However, your comments about Frank Stronach are WAY off the mark even they I can’t tell if you are saying this as an additional slam in your comments or if you really feel he has not been a very negative factor in MD racing the last 2-3 years.

          • Barbara

            Stewart, you don’t find it ironic that you use your first name only, and you who has something to sell according to some posts here? Interesting. I didn’t sling that much mud, I just rolled around in it with Cynthia a bit too much. While wondering if I needed references to do so.

            If I wanted to reveal my full ID, wouldn’t I do so? Wouldn’t anyone else here do so if they so chose, or maybe someone specifically invited to do so by the host of the site, or do I have you confused with someone else? Would it make my opinion or response to anyone here more or less valuable to you? I’m still going to have the same opinion. You are still going to judge it based on your own collected knowledge, opinion, and bias like any human being, correct?

            As for Frank, no you couldn’t tell. We got off track with Cynthia’s poor mares. I think Maryland is the worst thing Frank has done to racing, and that is SUCH a long list. That doesn’t justify Cynthia blaming all her woes on him, or the mare market entirely on him, or killing off her mares and saying that’s his fault, too.

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            Barbara,

            My posts have always contained a link to my site so I have never hideen anything because I stand behind what I say and have no reason to hide.

            And I do run a business but I have a solid track record and don’t slam other businesses for fear of losing potential customers that I honestly don’t need.

          • Joe

            Barbara, great replies to Cynthia’s posts. Cynthia may have mentioned her plan to euthanize some of her mares once before on the PR.

        • terrang

          Breeding for the market has its ups and downs.
          If I recall Lawrence Littmann poured a ton of money into horses. Hard times came and he sold one off for I believe $1,100 as a weanling.  Then it sold again as a yearling for $2,000

          It ran some good races and sold again for $200,000.  And then its new trainer used a different bit to drop its head down when it ran and it went on to win the Kentucky Derby.  Known as Little E. T.

          The breeder made nothing on this horse, but lost a lot.  Speculators made money along the way on him. 

          In the old days people bred to race.  Some of their cast offs at the track became horses like Seabiscuit.  And the Phipps I believe  gave up on the much raced at two Bupers, letting one of the Jacobs get him to win the Futurity Stakes at Belmont and a stakes at three.

          Rex Ellsworth bred to race, had a great trainer, and did well until he overextended.

          People who breed for market have to expect it can be a hobby, just as most race horse owners discover. 

          If the current market breeders can reduce costs and, as you are doing downsize, you will at least survive to remain in the phase of the business that you love. 

          I read recently that several horses that sold cheap have won graded stakes, alongside the elite blue bloods who sold for a lot or were held on to.

          Just remember, even the small regional breeders who lose money produce big players at the highest level.

          Example, Breeder Cup sprint winner  Amazombie, who was thrown in for free by the breeder, who thought the trainer was offering $5,000 for both of his three year olds, when the trainer intended to only buy the other one. 

          There is a lot of dumb luck in this business that money can’t buy and breeders can’t intentionally breed for.

        • Merasmag

          so stronach killed your business and your mares because of what he said a year ago? U told sum other poster who said they wanted2invest they mustve never taken eco101…if u truly meant what u said i will state WITH CERTAINTY u never took logic

    • c2

      If you really have stakes winners, stakes producers and winners that you are going to euthanize, please reply and I will give you an email address for someone interested in giving them a new home.  

      • Cynthia McGinnes

        Anyone interested in giving mares a good home, please reply to Thornmar Farm P.O.Box 640, Chestertown, Md. 21620. You will have to have references.

    • James Staples

      GAG???…HOW ABOUT PUKE???…IS MORE LIKE IT!!!…ty MS. McGINNES FORE STAND N UP & BEE N COUNTED!!!…BLE$$ YOUR SOUL!!!…ty…

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    As one of the breeders in MD that has seen my own 40 year multi million dollar investment decimated by Stronach’s determination to kill our horse industry because the legislature didn’t give him slots, it makes me gag to read the positive reviews given this man by those who know nothing of his deception, his cruelty, his complete and utter self-absorption…he is the living epitome of Dickens’s SCROOGE… only worse. I am so disappointed in Ray Paulick’s  endorsement of his scheme to use public money to support his farms and training centers with horses he purchased and now needs to break and train. This experience will only discourage anyone who has the misfortune to  participate from ever going anywhere near a racetrack again.
    I have to say  to Ray that I feel personally betrayed…he is recommending to others a man that he well knows has lied,broken agreements, and deliberately damaged the MD horse industry to a point where it will never recover in my lifetime,if ever. There is no way that you can justify what Stronach has done to MD..NO WAY. We have 18 mares foaling this year…we are euthanizing 5 after they wean their foals, not breeding back 4 more. These are good mares,all winner-producers, some stakes winners and stakes producers, with only a little age on them. There is no market for MD breds..trainers want to be able to run where they can make money. All of the promised slots money is now going to Stronach just to keep the tracks open, although he is doing everything he can to keep bettors from coming just so he can keep losing money and demand more subsidies from our slots money.

    Frank Stronach does nothing that doesn’t benefit him first and only. Ray, may those who buy into these partnerships on your recommendation learn to forgive you, as you may not survive all their curses later. As a member of the MD horse industry that is being strangled to death by this man, I need to work on forgiving you as well.

  • Matthew Martini

    After reading the documents, I cannot see why anyone would want to make a major investment in this enterprise. However, I can see that some people would want to buy a few $10 shares just for fun. It would bring people closer to the sport. Most fans only have the means to play the game, and leave the day with their losing $10 exacta and trifecta tickets littering the ground. To actually have a $10 investment that might actually not be one is no worse. It will give people something different to be excited about while watching the sport that they love.

    • Merasmag

      there’s a saying…sumthing about lying down w/pigs…

    • terrang

      I too at times have wanted to do more than just invest in a bet, but own a piece of this noble animals.

      But you are right, a Stronach investment is just “for fun”.  I have some Karakarum victory photos where my fellow horse owners are crowded in the winners circle. But not me as I was in far off Colorado when she won and won in New York. 

      If one of those Stronach horses gets home first in the Derby, do you think the track will pass out 400 tickets to the box seats on Derby Day.  But I assure you Stronach and his friends will be there in the inner circle to represent you.

      It would seem more fun to invest in a smaller venture that will get you a little closer to the horse when it wins. 

      I would rather donate ten bucks to horse rescue and visit those horses than give a dollar to Stronach so I can help pay his way to sit among the elites. 

      As for all the wonderful help Stronach has done for racing, it would have been much better if his ethnic friends had not piled so much fiat money into his hands to buy those track assets. (Happening in industry after industry especially the now badly damaged mass media).  Better if previous track owners had just held on and struggled on.   

      By the way, I commend Paulick for introducing a topic that has brought so much spirited debate from many angles….. viva freedom of speech….

  • Matthew Martini

    After reading the documents, I cannot see that anyone would want to make a major investment in this enterprise. However, I can see that some people would want to buy a few $10 shares just for fun. It would bring people closer to the sport. Most fans only have the means to play the game, and leave the day with their losing $10 exacta and trifecta tickets littering the ground. To actually have a $10 investment that might actually not be one is no worse. It gives people something different to think about when watching the sport they love.

  • Bellwether

    SPEAK N OF MARYLAND RACE N!!!…GOTTA GO SEE RAPID REDUX GO FORE #22 N A ROW WED!!!…HES READY TO ROLL!!!…GREAT LUCK TO HIM & HIS CONNECTIONS!!!…ty…

  • Bellwether

    SPEAK N OF MARYLAND RACE N!!!…GOTTA GO SEE RAPID REDUX GO FORE #22 N A ROW WED!!!…HES READY TO ROLL!!!…GREAT LUCK TO HIM & HIS CONNECTIONS!!!…ty…

  • SteveG

    It’s too bad Frank & other major movers in the game wouldn’t turn their financial resources & considerable talents for cooking up quadruple-quadfectas, etc., etc. – to the fundamental flaws in the game, like the price of a bet, the overriding perception by many the game is rigged & the concern for the welfare of racehorses before, during & after their careers – the fundamentals that should be unassailably correct & scrupulously maintained – before cooking up a scheme like this endeavor.

    A chimera (vapor onwership at 10 bucks a share) when held up against what ails the industry & what the movers in this business should be working night & day to fix.

    I’m not trying to imply innovation is not to be encouraged, BTW. I’m simply saying there’s no point in adding water to a bucket when there are holes in the bottom.

    A simple analogy for simpletons. Fix the bucket – then add water.

    Sadly, the evidence to date is that NONE of the many individuals who direct the industry have the fortitude for the dirty work required, especially when business is good (for them) in the short-term.

    Fix the fundamentals (a thankless, daunting, difficult task, no doubt) & many good things will ensue, including, of course, an increase in participation in the sport in numbers far more significant than what Frank’s latest fantasy will produce.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

    • Joe

      Amen!

  • SteveG

    It’s too bad Frank & other major movers in the game wouldn’t turn their financial resources & considerable talents for cooking up quadruple-quadfectas, etc., etc. – to the fundamental flaws in the game, like the price of a bet, the overriding perception by many the game is rigged & the concern for the welfare of racehorses before, during & after their careers – the fundamentals that should be unassailably correct & scrupulously maintained – before cooking up a scheme like this endeavor.

    A chimera (vapor onwership at 10 bucks a share) when held up against what ails the industry & what the movers in this business should be working night & day to fix.

    I’m not trying to imply innovation is not to be encouraged, BTW. I’m simply saying there’s no point in adding water to a bucket when there are holes in the bottom.

    A simple analogy for simpletons. Fix the bucket – then add water.

    Sadly, the evidence to date is that NONE of the many individuals who direct the industry have the fortitude for the dirty work required, especially when business is good (for them) in the short-term.

    Fix the fundamentals (a thankless, daunting, difficult task, no doubt) & many good things will ensue, including, of course, an increase in participation in the sport in numbers far more significant than what Frank’s latest fantasy will produce.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

  • Barbara

    I can’t feel sorry for you Cynthia, if you can’t even attempt to re-home the not aged mares you plan to euthanize after you take another cheap foal out of them. While I will give you a modicum of credit for choosing euthanasia over the unknown kill buyer for these mares you have no use for any longer – who were just factories to you it appears and I note you certainly thought things were “good enough” to breed them again last spring when they were really no different in MD than they are today – I find it hard to believe someone who had millions to spend for 40 years on the game can’t find a few thousand more to take care of each mare, or AT LEAST invest in re-training or re-HOMING them, just try.

    YOU are exactly what won’t be missed in this industry after Frank has finished it off.  18 mares, in MD?  W T F have you been drinking for YEARS?  And you plan to breed the lucky NINE back this year so you can create more unwanted horses for someone else to euthanize?? And then maybe off those mares in 2013? I am not even going to bother to try to forgive you. Ray, on the other hand, only bites off what he can chew, and has not recommended ANYTHING other than to have fun with a few worthless shares in a partnership. Rinse the bitter out of your mouth, Cynthia, and try some pink lemonade.

  • terrang

     guess I was lucky. the thousand dollar gelding we got to the tracks eventually bowed and was given to a member of a sheriff’s posse in Arizona and he became a trail horse.

    As for the debate over Stronach, I agree with those who say giving even one dollar to Stronach for his partnership venture is ethically wrong in light of his go to hell attitude toward partners in the past.  If he had forfeited ownership of the tracks along with every one else when he bankrupted the company, I would say okay let’s all buy back in.  But he ended up with the tracks for himself for pennies on the dollar. 

    How much megalomania are you going to tolerate? How much egocentricity? How much clever conniving?

    With all the connections and wisdom Ray Paulick has, I am surprised he just does not organize his own small syndicate and apply his expertise to running a publicly traded stable. I might buy into that if I knew there were honest attempts to keep costs down and keep management fees to a reasonable level. 

  • terrang

    guess I was lucky. the thousand dollar gelding we got to the tracks eventually bowed and was given to a member of a sheriff’s posse in Arizona and he became a trail horse.

    As for the debate over Stronach, I agree with those who say giving even one dollar to Stronach for his partnership venture is ethically wrong in light of his go to hell attitude toward partners in the past.  If he had forfeited ownership of the tracks along with every one else when he bankrupted the company, I would say okay let’s all buy back in.  But he ended up with the tracks for himself for pennies on the dollar. 

    How much megalomania are you going to tolerate? How much egocentricity? How much clever conniving?

    With all the connections and wisdom Ray Paulick has, I am surprised he just does not organize his own small syndicate and apply his expertise to running a publicly traded stable. I might buy into that if I knew there were honest attempts to keep costs down and keep management fees to a reasonable level.

  • Buglet

    I am astounded that Jack Brothers has chosen to remain silent.

    If I were the CEO of this proposal, I would be out front trying to defend it. I would be trying to explain its virtues.

    Jack…your silence is deafening.

    • Lane

      In the spirit of SEC compliance, as an officer of the company, I don’t think that Mr. Brothers can comment on, or discuss the nature of the public offering at this juncture.

      • Buglet

        Whatever.

      • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

        That is not true and he and anyone involved is free to discuss information in the publicly available S-1.  What he cannot discuss is anything not already documented in the S-1.

        • Buglet

          Thanks for the clarification, Stewart. I had a suspicion that was the case. Much obliged.

        • Lane

          While he may be legally free to discuss, during the initial 30-60 days after filing an S1, the generally recommended practice is to await SEC response before any public commentary.

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            Lane,

            I took a company public before and know the SEC rules.  The S-1 is already PUBLIC information and there is no reason not to discuss information that is already PUBLIC.  However, since many of the questions raised in the thread expose major issues in the offering, any response would be high level and worthless anyway.

  • Buglet

    I am astounded that Jack Brothers has chosen to remain silent.

    If I were the CEO of this proposal, I would be out front trying to defend it. I would be trying to explain its virtues.

    Jack…your silence is deafening.

  • c2

    If you really have stakes winners, stakes producers and winners that you are going to euthanize, please reply and I will give you an email address for someone interested in giving them a new home.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Why don’t you ask for the facts before you mouth off? These are not cheap mares….their foals are by Ky stallions such as Holy Bull, Big Brown, Pollard’s Vision, Stephen Got Even,Northern Afleet, Dixie Union. We have sold yearlings out of these mares at Saratoga for over $250,000. My husband and I started this farm in 1971 with only $5000 to spend and we have made our living from selling yearlings at the regional level, working hard, not having any money to invest that we didn’t earn in the business.We never stood a stallion for over $3500, and still have the honor of standing the only MD stallion, Horatius, that sired a Breeders Cup winner. We have been leading breeders in Md for many years, we do not breed cheap horses that nobody wants, we have bred many Md.Million winners( including one this year), and a Grade 1 winning Breeders Cup starter this year.The nine mares we are breeding this year are all SW,stakes producers, that will be bred to Ky stallions for the top of the market, as there is no regional market left for Md. breds, which is what I said. You criticize us for breeding 18 mares..this is OUR BUSINESS, this is how we make our living, we have employees that depend on us. We have made a decent living over the last 35 years, investing all the money we have earned back in the business..this is how most people who work in the horse industry do it.
    We have tried to find homes for these mares…nobody that we trust to care for them wants them. We have made our living as commercial breeders for 40 years, and our proud of our reputation in the business.We will not breed mares just to create  foals that can’t be sold at a small profit. We bred our mares last spring, thinking that Stronach would live up to his promise to invest in the tracks, hoping that the slots money he had held up for years would kick in and help our purses to pick up. How dare you make the staements you made about MD, when you obviously know absolutely nothing about the broken agreements that Stronach unleashed on us this summer.
    It is very sad that uninformed people such as yourself will criticize someone who has given her life to this business, and resents just a little bit that Frank Stronach is killing our industry because he seeks revenge against our state legislature for not giving him slots. Go ahead, let more people lose their money to this man,reward him for his deceptive ways. Ray Paulick doesn’t need an outsider such as you to defend him against my words…he knows very well who we are and our reputation built up over many years, even if you don’t.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Anyone interested in giving mares a good home, please reply to Thornmar Farm P.O.Box 640, Chestertown, Md. 21620. You will have to have references.

  • Nextwave

    Shannon,

    If you think he has any other intent than helping his existing businesses cover payroll and its existing overhead you need to wake up. Please dont put words in my mouth as I never said someone in Buisness shouldnt make a profit. 

    I am more concerned about new owners finaly making a decision to get into ownership and thinking this is the way ownership is.

  • Ace

    Your dedication to the industry is commendable.  Your honesty regarding the anticipated euthanasia of some of your mares is something most farm owners would never bring to light.
    Frank, on the other hand, has done nothing-NOTHING-except steal the racetracks he now owns from public investors via bankruptcy.
    To me it is quite shocking that Ray, who usually is on the correct side of an issue, would give lip service to an idea whose only purpose is to fleece more of the investing public.
    I am truly sorry about your mares, and hope that you can find a good home for them.

  • Lane

    In the spirit of SEC compliance, as an officer of the company, I don’t think that Mr. Brothers can comment on, or discuss the nature of the public offering at this juncture.

  • Buglet

    Whatever.

  • Merasmag

    why do u feel the need to euthanize these mares? better to abort the foals and keep whats already alive IMO

  • Ace

    Yes, we do think that Frank Stronach is doing this to make money.  You know why?
    That’s what Frank does.  He fleeces well meaning people like you as a pastime.
    Read about what he did to MEC and how the remaining company, after bankruptcy GAVE-GAVE, not sold, GAVE him the racetracks.  They gave him the tracks to go away and not come back.
    Fleecing well meaning people at $10/pop may seem like a harmless venture to you, but is done with malice and aforethought and anyone that thinks otherwise is due for a reality check.

  • Barbara

    Yeah an outsider such as me because I didn’t euthanize mares no longer useful to me and just cost me money? I never got in OVER my head. I KNOW EXACTLY who you are and have known, I will give you credit for always posting your whiny, often misinformed when a comment on anything but MD, always biased messages here under your full name. And you are a blight on the industry IMO based on your posts here today, a bitter one at that. Get out if it is over for you. Make it a last legacy to find them homes. Nothing you have done (including having family money to buy a farm in the first place per your own quotes in news reports) that is good in 40 years is outweighed by your public plea to get a pat on the back for transferring all of your responsibility to these horses that “earned” you such a living to Mr. Stronach.

    So you thought magically that Frank would right the ship in a year’s time in MD? Really? As for no one decent enough to take your horses, you mean you are worried they might not have a farm of their own, and land, that would make it easier to care for them since none of this is their fault? Or are you quite concerned they might fall into the wrong hands who will kill them when they are of no use, but not quite the way you have in mind? I don’t doubt you take good care of them while they live, and again, let me laud you for choosing euthanasia to “lay off” your workers so to speak. Guess you can cut the staff with half as many horses, too.

    All you did was defend yourself in an egotistical self serving rant and you clearly only see horses as they reflect on YOU, not as they ARE. You admit to the good living they provided you and then you can’t give them a home when times have been heading THIS way for a variety of reasons, and not JUST FRANK’S obvious misdeeds in MD, for a very long time. Frank needs to make a living too, Ms. Good Rep. Of course now you’ll be on the hook when the rescues contact you about these mares, but I bet that was the plan all along, Cynthia. That or you are so honest you are just crazy. Why did you announce you were euthanizing the mares, to cleanse your soul or to bait a response?

    As for Ray, no, he hardly needs defense for anything he says or ever looks for it. And I hardly defended him since your rant about “forgiving” him was so off the chart and self referenced in the first place. He’ll probably feel sorry for Ms. 40 Years and defend you to me here. Wait.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    That is not true and he and anyone involved is free to discuss information in the publicly available S-1.  What he cannot discuss is anything not already documented in the S-1.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Barbara ???  Who are you?

  • Barbara

    Kinda late for that. They might have been on NG fees with no motivation to abort to avoid cost of stud fee and the costs for raising the foals, too.

  • Buglet

    Thanks for the clarification, Stewart. I had a suspicion that was the case. Much obliged.

  • Barbara

    My name is Barbara. I gather your name is Stewart?

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Two things have become apparent to me in the comments on this thread. Those who are actually members of the industry who depend on the industry for their living have one opinion about Stronach…those who love horses and racing but are not depending on the industry for their living have another. It is the latter who are resorting to personal attacks to cover their lack of knowledge….those who suggest that broodmares should be aborted to save their lives do not realize that an empty broodmare has very little value at this point in time and is more likely to be euthanized than a pregnant one. Finally, I would advise everyone not to believe everything that they read in news reports:-)

    • Barbara

      Cynthia, I don’t think you are alone in choosing to euthanize perfectly healthy, sound, serviceable mares in this economy or Thoroughbred market. I do think you are one of the very few who would come on a widely read industry forum and announce your intention to do so. You didn’t even indicate you would consider a continued effort to find them new homes in your initial post – just that you want their babies? You strike me as someone who probably thinks no one would take care of your mares as well as you do, either that or you can’t stand for someone else to profit off them? I am sure it is the former, but that is your ego, more than reality, although any horse’s future once they leave our hands is uncertain, including all those foals you want to sell?

      As for empty mares, you beg an excellent follow up question. If these foals will not be cheap, and the mares are not worthless, then why didn’t you or don’t you sell them in foal? Seems like the NY program is ready for mares like yours? Perhaps you could look into partnering up with a NY breeder to foal the mares there and breed back to one of their NY stallions? Wouldn’t that be a better solution with a potential return for your business and a new home/use for the mare in a profitable state bred program? I don’t think the news report I read that quoted you was wrong, either, but it is neither here nor there. But I don’t want to read a Breeders Cup bio about you in the future, either, that could truthfully read, “Bred second BC starter for 2012 BC, and also efficiently euthanized five mares she no longer found useful just after weaning this past month.”

      • Cynthia McGinnes

        Barbara, you have absolutely no idea of how many decent mares cannot find homes…hard as it may be for you to believe, broodmares that can’t produce foals that can be sold as a profit cannot be kept as pets in a viable business. The mares that we want to move on to new homes cannot make money for NY breeders either….we have offered them. Your post unfortunately just reveals your ignorance about the true state of the broodmare market.
        It costs money to run a farm and breed mares…many of these mares would be useful producers for a regional market. Stronach has killed off the MD market that would have supported these foals as racehorses. I am sorry if the truth offends all horse lovers, but broodmares that can no longer produce foals that can be sold for more than the cost of producing them become extraneous to a breeding farm that operates as a business. This is fact, this is truth, and I would not be unhappy to see this in any Breeders Cup bio.

        • Cynthia McGinnes

          In addition, I would like to ask Barbara to reveal her full name…you know mine, plus my address. Why won’t you back up your strong opinions,Barbara, by revealing your complete identity? And the source of your knowledge?

          • Barbara

            Because unlike you, I recognize the usefulness of public forums with the option of discretion for discussion, and some here do know who I am, some suspect they do, and some, like you, don’t. That is my right. As everyone else who doesn’t use two full names or uses a made up one, or more than one.

            I did not volunteer my ID, my address (would never do that HERE although in your case easily obtainable as you have a farm), you did. Your choice. But I can add that I would NEVER come on here in full or partial ID and on a thread where I bashed the crap out of Frank Stronach (a fun and inviting pastime for the game, I must say, but he can take it and deserves most of it), also announce my intention to off horses next summer that I made a LIVING off of, and hope that conversation went well.

        • dh

          Cynthia McGinnes, I have always enjoyed your posts and you are usually right on about Stronach and the damage he has done. However, this game has been good to you and probably so have those mares, I find it disgusting you will kill them after they are weaned from their foals. C’mon Man? you don’t have hay and feed money put aside for these mares? Out of all the human traits I find BETRAYAL the worst. You can make it work, find a way.

          • Barbara

            It’s hard not to wonder if Cynthia sees the correlation between Frank’s cynical betrayal of MD, and her own decision to betray those mares after one more foal, isn’t it? I bet the mares trust her, just like she trusted Frank. Both unknowing of how to read past performance!

      • Larry Ensor

        Barbara,
        I read nothing in Mrs. McGinnes’ post that suggest that she in favor of “euthanizing perfectly healthy, sound, serviceable mares”. I suggest you read and re-read someone’s post to make sure you understand exactly what they are trying to say before you before making such personal attacks.

        As to your second paragraph; You may have a working knowledge of the industry but no idea of the market and the realities of working and making a living in today’s market. The McGinnes’ have decades of experience and expertise and her posts are far more worthy of reading and learning from then the vast majority of others who post here.
        IMO you owe an apology.

        IMO for your posts to have merit I suggest you give your full name and back ground in the industry if not easily verified by doing a simple search as is mine and the McGinnes’

        • Barbara

          Larry, aside from how long most of your pedantic posts run at PR, I often like what you have to say and consider it informative. I am very clear on what Ms. McGiness wrote in the first place, perhaps you need to re-read? As for my attack, yes, I was incensed, but not so much in the post you replied to.

          I understand the market for ALL horses, and the cost of caring for them, too. I know from your posts, as I don’t really care who you are, that you think you have cornered the small market on that, but you haven’t.

          When Ray decides that EVERYONE has to reveal their full ID to EVERYONE HERE, I’ll be right there. Until then, remember that it is a choice to post in a PUBLIC forum, and who all reads your words, and learn to judge a post for its content. It was Cynthia who invited everyone to know EXACTLY who she is and what she has accomplished in the business, as well as what she intends to do, not my response in the first place.

          Cynthia, I have been offered many of those free empty mares. There is no “free” horse, though. I understand the broodmare market all too well. I had someone take a mare I gave her this year in an effort to find the mare a good home (I gave up the minimal thousands offered for her to do this so she wouldn’t ship to a regional market and the unknown), get her in foal, and promptly flip the mare for a decided profit. Good for her, as long as the mare is safe. On the sell of a mare years ago, I took the lesser offer (although a fair one) to get the preferred home and stallion for her.

          Calling me ignorant isn’t going to excuse your cold heartless actions, Cynthia. We may disagree, but I actually understand your position more than you might think I do. I just sincerely doubt with all my heart how much effort you have put into new homes for these mares that you claim won’t produce “cheap” foals yet are so worthless you can’t move them to a state next door or one two over looking for mares? Really? Which is it? OK. Guess what, Cynthia. The mare market was even WORSE last year when you BRED these mares back.

          • Barbara

            PS Cynthia, your declaration of honesty about euthanizing your mares might not be ideal BC bio PR material, and certainly will invite criticism and turn off a few more potential investors and fans (what’s left) from the sport. You and Frank should have a drink together soon and compare methods.

          • dh

            Barbara, one of the people I train for has a retired broodmare on her farm. She gets a check every month from the owner (on time) of the mare for a $150. The mare is 23 but still looks great and has a companion mare which belongs to my client. These are not wealthy people, they just are giving back a little to a couple of horses that were good to them. It can be done. Cynthia can afford those expensive stud fees from out of town stallions she can keep a few mares alive on HER OWN(ie no board fees) FARM.

          • Cynthia McGinnes

            I think the only reply I can make is that Barbara refers to the horse industry as a sport…to me it has to be a business. Every broodmare kept on this farm costs a minimum of $2800 a year for hay,straw,feed, blacksmith and routine vet..whether retired or not.We used to have boarders that helped with the costs..because Stronach has ruined the MD market, they have left for other states. I personally have foaled over 2000 mares in over 40 years..I have done the night watch on this farm every year we have been here.I love the mares and babies…,I also have to find the money to pay the bills, which keep going up.You obviously do not see that horses have to be considered a business expense even though you love them.Right now the only income we have is selling yearlings. The stud fees are an investment in getting a good price for the yearling. You obviously don’t quite understand the economics. So be it. 

          • dh

            I have a business degree from the Univ. of Maryland and I have been involved in horse racing as either an owner, trainer, and breeder for 17 years now. I understand the economics and business side of horse racing very well thank you. I also respect your opinion and I really enjoy your blogs about Stronach and the situation regarding Maryland racing. However, I must repeat my position, BETRAYAL is an awful trait. Those mares deserve better and you know it. I’m sure you could make it work. Killing horses because they no longer make us money is not why we got into this game. I guess we are different. I see a sunset and think ”I hope I see another one as beautiful tomorrow”, you see a sunset and think “well its dark out”. So be it.

          • Larry Ensor

            Barbara, There are many “off the cuff” post that show lack of knowledge and or understanding of the topic. By in large yours are not. A bit naïve at times and I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense. But worthy of reading. I made my comments after reading all of your comments to Mrs. McGinnes’ and posted in one place. Sorry if it was out of sync. But I did and still do think you took what she was saying out of context. But understand why. I also understand the reasons why Mrs. McGinnes said what she did. It is not what we would do and don’t. We have a field full of “non productive” assets, rather liabilities. But I would be a liar, when at times we struggle to pay the feed bill each week if it didn’t cross my mind. It is easy for someone who boards a money loosing mare to say put her down. Quite another for those of us who interact with them everyday. Whether we own them or board them we won’t do it. I won’t pass judgment on others choices when I don’t know their circumstances. I know a number of people who in the past appeared to have made a lot of money with some horses. But not all and it cost a lot to maintain a farm and to pay for those that don’t make any money in the ring or the track. And when we do make a “lick” we pay off a back log of bills and do upgrades to the farm. A lot of those people are now on the “street”. The industry has had its ups and down in the 50 plus years I have been involved. But nothing like it is now.

            As to my “pedantic” posts, I would agree some are at times. But they are not meant for those who are well versed. But for those who are not and make uninformed comments. And even more so for those that never post but want to learn some of the nuances’ and intricacies of the sport and business. I have a life time of insider knowledge of the business and working directly with horses. They can dismiss what they want but hope the time I take is worthy to others.

            We have gotten way off topic here.

          • Barbara

            Thanks Larry. I am probably not naive as much as I am an idealist at times. And will be the first to admit that I don’t make my living in the sport now. I have made a living partially from the industry in the past. I have and do own horses and animals that have run up big vet bills (and of late), so yes, I know the temptation to call it a day, but I never do, unless they do.

            I enjoy your posts and the time you take to impart information. And I learn from them, too, even if it is a nugget buried deep, or another way of looking at this complicated game.

            Glad to hear that you still care for the non productive assets. Folks like you are an asset to the sport and the horse IMO.

    • Backontop

      DEAD WRONG!!!!!!
      I fall into the latter group and can see Mr. Stronach for what he is! Read the proposal, this thing is written to provide Stronach and his crew with a great deal of instant income. Over 25% management fees and inflated training fees. You have to be a shill to think this thing doesn’t smell funny!

      • Backontop

        P.S. 
        I work at the track everyday and the only reason I do not depend on the industry for my living is because I have invested wisely and can retire if needed. I work everyday solely because I love being with and working with the horses. Seeing what this once great sport has become makes me wonder everyday why I continue.

        • Cynthia McGinnes

          I apologize…I should have said that SOME of those who don’t depend on the industry for their living are unable to see Stronach for what he is. You are one of those who can see the truth…congratulations!

        • James Staples

          U NOE WHY…”THE HORSES”!!!…ty…

    • Merasmag

      ummm…u said u would euthanize your broodmares as soon as they foaled…i wood suggest u r empty and i hope sum1 steps in and stops your evil plans as u obviously dknotknow the meaning of value

      if nothing else, i hope your broodmares get shoved down your throat for 3 squares a day until they are gone

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Two things have become apparent to me in the comments on this thread. Those who are actually members of the industry who depend on the industry for their living have one opinion about Stronach…those who love horses and racing but are not depending on the industry for their living have another. It is the latter who are resorting to personal attacks to cover their lack of knowledge….those who suggest that broodmares should be aborted to save their lives do not realize that an empty broodmare has very little value at this point in time and is more likely to be euthanized than a pregnant one. Finally, I would advise everyone not to believe everything that they read in news reports:-)

  • Barbara

    Cynthia, I don’t think you are alone in choosing to euthanize perfectly healthy, sound, serviceable mares in this economy or Thoroughbred market. I do think you are one of the very few who would come on a widely read industry forum and announce your intention to do so. You didn’t even indicate you would consider a continued effort to find them new homes in your initial post – just that you want their babies? You strike me as someone who probably thinks no one would take care of your mares as well as you do, either that or you can’t stand for someone else to profit off them? I am sure it is the former, but that is your ego, more than reality, although any horse’s future once they leave our hands is uncertain, including all those foals you want to sell?

    As for empty mares, you beg an excellent follow up question. If these foals will not be cheap, and the mares are not worthless, then why didn’t you or don’t you sell them in foal? Seems like the NY program is ready for mares like yours? Perhaps you could look into partnering up with a NY breeder to foal the mares there and breed back to one of their NY stallions? Wouldn’t that be a better solution with a potential return for your business and a new home/use for the mare in a profitable state bred program? I don’t think the news report I read that quoted you was wrong, either, but it is neither here nor there. But I don’t want to read a Breeders Cup bio about you in the future, either, that could truthfully read, “Bred second BC starter for 2012 BC, and also efficiently euthanized five mares she no longer found useful just after weaning this past month.”

  • Backontop

    DEAD WRONG!!!!!!
    I fall into the latter group and can see Mr. Stronach for what he is! Read the proposal, this thing is written to provide Stronach and his crew with a great deal of instant income. Over 25% management fees and inflated training fees. You have to be a shill to think this thing doesn’t smell funny!

  • Karen Worthington

    Ray-While I agree with you that getting people more interested in Thoroughbred ownership is good for the racing industry, it doesn’t look to me as though Mr. Stronach’s offering has that goal or could possibly have that effect.

    Certainly, partnerships can be a way for people to become involved in an affordable way.  What people need to understand is that the Return On the Investment (ROI) is not always financial.  There are numerous racehorse-owning partnerships structured to give non-financial returns that have a subjective value, such as visiting the animal, receiving communication from the connections, etc. I think it is those “emotional” returns that can bind a person to the industry, thus creating a stronger base for racing.

    I have seen partnership offerings touting the “thrill of being in the winners circle!” and, while I’m sure that’s the ultimate goal for any owner, many would be satisfied with a “return” of feeling that they were truly a part of the whole picture.  The Japanese “racing clubs” you mentioned sound as though they do just that, while Mr. Stronach’s offering seems to me to go to every possible length to keep the investor out of the frame entirely.

    I have been thinking that there might be a place in the racing industry for some, “pre-partnership counseling,” to help people identify their goals in becoming involved.  Maybe the time is now?

  • Backontop

    P.S. 
    I work at the track everyday and the only reason I do not depend on the industry for my living is because I have invested wisely and can retire if needed. I work everyday solely because I love being with and working with the horses. Seeing what this once great sport has become makes me wonder everyday why I continue.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Barbara, you have absolutely no idea of how many decent mares cannot find homes…hard as it may be for you to believe, broodmares that can’t produce foals that can be sold as a profit cannot be kept as pets in a viable business. The mares that we want to move on to new homes cannot make money for NY breeders either….we have offered them. Your post unfortunately just reveals your ignorance about the true state of the broodmare market.
    It costs money to run a farm and breed mares…many of these mares would be useful producers for a regional market. Stronach has killed off the MD market that would have supported these foals as racehorses. I am sorry if the truth offends all horse lovers, but broodmares that can no longer produce foals that can be sold for more than the cost of producing them become extraneous to a breeding farm that operates as a business. This is fact, this is truth, and I would not be unhappy to see this in any Breeders Cup bio.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    I apologize…I should have said that SOME of those who don’t depend on the industry for their living are unable to see Stronach for what he is. You are one of those who can see the truth…congratulations!

  • Larry Ensor

    Barbara,
    I read nothing in Mrs. McGinnes’ post that suggest that she in favor of “euthanizing perfectly healthy, sound, serviceable mares”. I suggest you read and re-read someone’s post to make sure you understand exactly what they are trying to say before you before making such personal attacks.

    As to your second paragraph; You may have a working knowledge of the industry but no idea of the market and the realities of working and making a living in today’s market. The McGinnes’ have decades of experience and expertise and her posts are far more worthy of reading and learning from then the vast majority of others who post here.
    IMO you owe an apology.

    IMO for your posts to have merit I suggest you give your full name and back ground in the industry if not easily verified by doing a simple search as is mine and the McGinnes’

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    In addition, I would like to ask Barbara to reveal her full name…you know mine, plus my address. Why won’t you back up your strong opinions,Barbara, by revealing your complete identity? And the source of your knowledge?

  • Merasmag

    this link is know help @all tyvm

  • terrang

    Breeding for the market has its ups and downs.
    If I recall Lawrence Littmann poured a ton of money into horses. Hard times came and he sold one off for I believe $1,100 as a weanling.  Then it sold again as a yearling for $2,000

    It ran some good races and sold again for $200,000.  And then its new trainer used a different bit to drop its head down when it ran and it went on to win the Kentucky Derby.  Known as Little E. T.

    The breeder made nothing on this horse, but lost a lot.  Speculators made money along the way on him. 

    In the old days people bred to race.  Some of their cast offs at the track became horses like Seabiscuit.  And the Phipps I believe  gave up on the much raced at two Bupers, letting one of the Jacobs get him to win the Futurity Stakes at Belmont and a stakes at three.

    Rex Ellsworth bred to race, had a great trainer, and did well until he overextended.

    People who breed for market have to expect it can be a hobby, just as most race horse owners discover. 

    If the current market breeders can reduce costs and, as you are doing downsize, you will at least survive to remain in the phase of the business that you love. 

    I read recently that several horses that sold cheap have won graded stakes, alongside the elite blue bloods who sold for a lot or were held on to.

    Just remember, even the small regional breeders who lose money produce big players at the highest level.

    Example, Breeder Cup sprint winner  Amazombie, who was thrown in for free by the breeder, who thought the trainer was offering $5,000 for both of his three year olds, when the trainer intended to only buy the other one. 

    There is a lot of dumb luck in this business that money can’t buy and breeders can’t intentionally breed for.

  • Joe

    Barbara, great replies to Cynthia’s posts. Cynthia may have mentioned her plan to euthanize some of her mares once before on the PR.

  • Barbara

    Larry, aside from how long most of your pedantic posts run at PR, I often like what you have to say and consider it informative. I am very clear on what Ms. McGiness wrote in the first place, perhaps you need to re-read? As for my attack, yes, I was incensed, but not so much in the post you replied to.

    I understand the market for ALL horses, and the cost of caring for them, too. I know from your posts, as I don’t really care who you are, that you think you have cornered the small market on that, but you haven’t.

    When Ray decides that EVERYONE has to reveal their full ID to EVERYONE HERE, I’ll be right there. Until then, remember that it is a choice to post in a PUBLIC forum, and who all reads your words, and learn to judge a post for its content. It was Cynthia who invited everyone to know EXACTLY who she is and what she has accomplished in the business, as well as what she intends to do, not my response in the first place.

    Cynthia, I have been offered many of those free empty mares. There is no “free” horse, though. I understand the broodmare market all too well. I had someone take a mare I gave her this year in an effort to find the mare a good home (I gave up the minimal thousands offered for her to do this so she wouldn’t ship to a regional market and the unknown), get her in foal, and promptly flip the mare for a decided profit. Good for her, as long as the mare is safe. On the sell of a mare years ago, I took the lesser offer (although a fair one) to get the preferred home and stallion for her.

    Calling me ignorant isn’t going to excuse your cold heartless actions, Cynthia. We may disagree, but I actually understand your position more than you might think I do. I just sincerely doubt with all my heart how much effort you have put into new homes for these mares that you claim won’t produce “cheap” foals yet are so worthless you can’t move them to a state next door or one two over looking for mares? Really? Which is it? OK. Guess what, Cynthia. The mare market was even WORSE last year when you BRED these mares back.

  • Joe

    Amen!

  • Barbara

    PS Cynthia, your declaration of honesty about euthanizing your mares might not be ideal BC bio PR material, and certainly will invite criticism and turn off a few more potential investors and fans (what’s left) from the sport. You and Frank should have a drink together soon and compare methods.

  • Merasmag

    there’s a saying…sumthing about lying down w/pigs…

  • terrang

    I too at times have wanted to do more than just invest in a bet, but own a piece of this noble animals.

    But you are right, a Stronach investment is just “for fun”.  I have some Karakarum victory photos where my fellow horse owners are crowded in the winners circle. But not me as I was in far off Colorado when she won and won in New York. 

    If one of those Stronach horses gets home first in the Derby, do you think the track will pass out 400 tickets to the box seats on Derby Day.  But I assure you Stronach and his friends will be there in the inner circle to represent you.

    It would seem more fun to invest in a smaller venture that will get you a little closer to the horse when it wins. 

    I would rather donate ten bucks to horse rescue and visit those horses than give a dollar to Stronach so I can help pay his way to sit among the elites. 

    As for all the wonderful help Stronach has done for racing, it would have been much better if his ethnic friends had not piled so much fiat money into his hands to buy those track assets. (Happening in industry after industry especially the now badly damaged mass media).  Better if previous track owners had just held on and struggled on.   

    By the way, I commend Paulick for introducing a topic that has brought so much spirited debate from many angles….. viva freedom of speech….

  • Merasmag

    ummm…u said u would euthanize your broodmares as soon as they foaled…i wood suggest u r empty and i hope sum1 steps in and stops your evil plans as u obviously dknotknow the meaning of value

    if nothing else, i hope your broodmares get shoved down your throat for 3 squares a day until they are gone

  • dh

    Cynthia McGinnes, I have always enjoyed your posts and you are usually right on about Stronach and the damage he has done. However, this game has been good to you and probably so have those mares, I find it disgusting you will kill them after they are weaned from their foals. C’mon Man? you don’t have hay and feed money put aside for these mares? Out of all the human traits I find BETRAYAL the worst. You can make it work, find a way.

  • Barbara

    Because unlike you, I recognize the usefulness of public forums with the option of discretion for discussion, and some here do know who I am, some suspect they do, and some, like you, don’t. That is my right. As everyone else who doesn’t use two full names or uses a made up one, or more than one.

    I did not volunteer my ID, my address (would never do that HERE although in your case easily obtainable as you have a farm), you did. Your choice. But I can add that I would NEVER come on here in full or partial ID and on a thread where I bashed the crap out of Frank Stronach (a fun and inviting pastime for the game, I must say, but he can take it and deserves most of it), also announce my intention to off horses next summer that I made a LIVING off of, and hope that conversation went well.

  • Barbara

    It’s hard not to wonder if Cynthia sees the correlation between Frank’s cynical betrayal of MD, and her own decision to betray those mares after one more foal, isn’t it? I bet the mares trust her, just like she trusted Frank. Both unknowing of how to read past performance!

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Cute Barbara.  If you are going to sling so much mud at someone you might as well use your full name and disclose your position in the industry.

    I am not defending Cynthia and don’t want to get anywhere near that discussion.

    However, your comments about Frank Stronach are WAY off the mark even they I can’t tell if you are saying this as an additional slam in your comments or if you really feel he has not been a very negative factor in MD racing the last 2-3 years.

  • dh

    Barbara, one of the people I train for has a retired broodmare on her farm. She gets a check every month from the owner (on time) of the mare for a $150. The mare is 23 but still looks great and has a companion mare which belongs to my client. These are not wealthy people, they just are giving back a little to a couple of horses that were good to them. It can be done. Cynthia can afford those expensive stud fees from out of town stallions she can keep a few mares alive on HER OWN(ie no board fees) FARM.

  • Larry Ensor

    Barbara, There are many “off the cuff” post that show lack of knowledge and or understanding of the topic. By in large yours are not. A bit naïve at times and I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense. But worthy of reading. I made my comments after reading all of your comments to Mrs. McGinnes’ and posted in one place. Sorry if it was out of sync. But I did and still do think you took what she was saying out of context. But understand why. I also understand the reasons why Mrs. McGinnes said what she did. It is not what we would do and don’t. We have a field full of “non productive” assets, rather liabilities. But I would be a liar, when at times we struggle to pay the feed bill each week if it didn’t cross my mind. It is easy for someone who boards a money loosing mare to say put her down. Quite another for those of us who interact with them everyday. Whether we own them or board them we won’t do it. I won’t pass judgment on others choices when I don’t know their circumstances. I know a number of people who in the past appeared to have made a lot of money with some horses. But not all and it cost a lot to maintain a farm and to pay for those that don’t make any money in the ring or the track. And when we do make a “lick” we pay off a back log of bills and do upgrades to the farm. A lot of those people are now on the “street”. The industry has had its ups and down in the 50 plus years I have been involved. But nothing like it is now.

    As to my “pedantic” posts, I would agree some are at times. But they are not meant for those who are well versed. But for those who are not and make uninformed comments. And even more so for those that never post but want to learn some of the nuances’ and intricacies of the sport and business. I have a life time of insider knowledge of the business and working directly with horses. They can dismiss what they want but hope the time I take is worthy to others.

    We have gotten way off topic here.

  • Barbara

    Stewart, you don’t find it ironic that you use your first name only, and you who has something to sell according to some posts here? Interesting. I didn’t sling that much mud, I just rolled around in it with Cynthia a bit too much. While wondering if I needed references to do so.

    If I wanted to reveal my full ID, wouldn’t I do so? Wouldn’t anyone else here do so if they so chose, or maybe someone specifically invited to do so by the host of the site, or do I have you confused with someone else? Would it make my opinion or response to anyone here more or less valuable to you? I’m still going to have the same opinion. You are still going to judge it based on your own collected knowledge, opinion, and bias like any human being, correct?

    As for Frank, no you couldn’t tell. We got off track with Cynthia’s poor mares. I think Maryland is the worst thing Frank has done to racing, and that is SUCH a long list. That doesn’t justify Cynthia blaming all her woes on him, or the mare market entirely on him, or killing off her mares and saying that’s his fault, too.

  • Barbara

    Thanks Larry. I am probably not naive as much as I am an idealist at times. And will be the first to admit that I don’t make my living in the sport now. I have made a living partially from the industry in the past. I have and do own horses and animals that have run up big vet bills (and of late), so yes, I know the temptation to call it a day, but I never do, unless they do.

    I enjoy your posts and the time you take to impart information. And I learn from them, too, even if it is a nugget buried deep, or another way of looking at this complicated game.

    Glad to hear that you still care for the non productive assets. Folks like you are an asset to the sport and the horse IMO.

  • Merasmag

    after hours of reflection i have a sickening feeling i know who ms mcginnes is…as u have knot said u r euthanizing any mares i dknotcare who u r…

  • Barbara

    Finally:-)

  • James Staples

    HE NEEDS TO LISTEN FORE A CHANGE???…THEY HAVE A HARD TIME GET N A SURFACE RITE!!!…GMAFB…ty…

  • James Staples

    GO ON GIRL!!!…JUMP N WITH BOTH HANDS & BOTH FEET!!!…GOOD LUCK???…ty…

  • James Staples

    GAG???…HOW ABOUT PUKE???…IS MORE LIKE IT!!!…ty MS. McGINNES FORE STAND N UP & BEE N COUNTED!!!…BLE$$ YOUR SOUL!!!…ty…

  • James Staples

    U NOE WHY…”THE HORSES”!!!…ty…

  • Bellwether

    OFF TOPIC???…SOW WHAT???…SPCA MODEL IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!…SOW GET YOUR A$$E$ BUSY!!!…”THEY SHOOT PEOPLE DON’T THEY”???…ty…

  • Bellwether

    OFF TOPIC???…SOW WHAT???…SPCA MODEL IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!…SOW GET YOUR A$$E$ BUSY!!!…”THEY SHOOT PEOPLE DON’T THEY”???…ty…

  • Lane

    While he may be legally free to discuss, during the initial 30-60 days after filing an S1, the generally recommended practice is to await SEC response before any public commentary.

  • Steve Zorn

    “Does anyone really think Frank Stronach is doing this to make money?” You bet I do. That’s what Frank does, in every imaginable way and some that are beyond imagining.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    I think the only reply I can make is that Barbara refers to the horse industry as a sport…to me it has to be a business. Every broodmare kept on this farm costs a minimum of $2800 a year for hay,straw,feed, blacksmith and routine vet..whether retired or not.We used to have boarders that helped with the costs..because Stronach has ruined the MD market, they have left for other states. I personally have foaled over 2000 mares in over 40 years..I have done the night watch on this farm every year we have been here.I love the mares and babies…,I also have to find the money to pay the bills, which keep going up.You obviously do not see that horses have to be considered a business expense even though you love them.Right now the only income we have is selling yearlings. The stud fees are an investment in getting a good price for the yearling. You obviously don’t quite understand the economics. So be it.

  • Rjt

    Reference the 1/3/12 article regarding surgery for Harlem Rocker, one of the horses in the Adena Racing Venture II offering.  Would it be unreasonable to expect that those who invested in that endeavor would have been notified before they were allowed to discover the information via general media release?  Would it have been reasonable to expect that they be notified when one of the horses that was actively racing was retired, injured, or sold?  Many people thought that was a good idea too, but received no more information than that provided in general press releases.

  • Barbara

    Cynthia, while you are reaching about semantics regarding “sport”, “game”, “business”, and “industry”, as I interchange all of those descriptions… I will bet you are doing so because you know you  have little defense.

    I do APPRECIATE the economics and that it is your sole business income, and you don’t appreciate the horses for the value they have given to YOUR life over the years and do not feel indebted to them. That’s your right, too. At least you are a responsible owner in that you will pay to have them put down, but why do you have mares that have NO value whatsoever in the first place if this is JUST about MD? You can’t make a mare share deal to get them back in foal and try to move them on to NY market in the fall? Just make a concerted effort to find your mares a home first, that’s all. Don’t sign their death warrant six to eight months in advance in an on line forum instead.

  • Barbara

    Cynthia, while you are reaching about semantics regarding “sport”, “game”, “business”, and “industry”, as I interchange all of those descriptions… I will bet you are doing so because you know you  have little defense.

    I do APPRECIATE the economics and that it is your sole business income, and you don’t appreciate the horses for the value they have given to YOUR life over the years and do not feel indebted to them. That’s your right, too. At least you are a responsible owner in that you will pay to have them put down, but why do you have mares that have NO value whatsoever in the first place if this is JUST about MD? You can’t make a mare share deal to get them back in foal and try to move them on to NY market in the fall? Just make a concerted effort to find your mares a home first, that’s all. Don’t sign their death warrant six to eight months in advance in an on line forum instead.

  • Don

    Thanks to the off topic bickering above, this topic is becoming diluted and sidetracked, but I’m sure our host likes that way.

    I think $10 could be better spent supporting a rescue, helping out a panhandler, or even buying a Latte and a crumpet at Starbuck’s.  At least it would give one a warm feeling for a while.

    • Merasmag

      u call it off-topic…i call it rightonpoint

      pots sknot call kettles black

  • Don

    Thanks to the off topic bickering above, this topic is becoming diluted and sidetracked, but I’m sure our host likes that way.

    I think $10 could be better spent supporting a rescue, helping out a panhandler, or even buying a Latte and a crumpet at Starbuck’s.  At least it would give one a warm feeling for a while.

  • Don

    This doesn’t surprise me a bit. Adena II & III should have been, in my opinion, investigated for non disclosure.

  • terrang

    Re: the cost of keeping old barren mares.
    Out here in the west a rancher will run a cow and its calf all year and hope to get $500 for the calf.

    I’ve often thought racing owners should approach these ranchers and guarantee them $700 to let a retired horse run free over the range during a year.  This would greatly reduce the maintenance cost for the owner, allow the horse to run free in the wild so to speak as it was intended to do.  

    People like Stronach and Claiborne and Warren in California and Phipps (who are connected with the King Ranch) etc. could do this if they had a mind to.   How much money do they have to wring out of their operation though is their business.

    • Larry Ensor

      Terrang, On face value it sound like a good idea. But cattle are ruminants, meaning they have digestive systems that allows them to live on just about anything they can find to eat. Which is why they have adopted well to western range land. Horses are not built the same and Thoroughbreds would starve to death. They could get by in the late spring to early fall depending on the area and type of available forage with decent growing conditions but not the winter.

      It costs us around on average around $1,500 a year to properly look after a retired TB.
      That includes, 6-9 lbs of quality feed and 15 lbs of hay per day during the winter months,
      Vaccinations, trimming when needed, blanketed when needed, basic shelter and decent grass during the growing season. Basic vet. This does not include the cost of the land nor fencing, repair and maintenance, taxes etc.. Which we have to do anyway.

       

      • terrang

        I am not backing off my idea that quickly.
        Believe it or not cattle can’t exist year round on the grazing here on the plains either. So the cattlemen feed them hay in the winter. So the horses would be fed too.

        No, they would not get hay and vitamins and shots – unless brought in twice a year for processing in a squeeze chute …. but wild horses survive without grain. Imagine that.

        Yes, the horses retired to a ranch would live a wild life but I bet every day they spend roaming on mesas and in valleys would be worth a week at a pampering farm.  Imagine a horse roamng over thousands of acres every year instead of just within a 20 acre paddock if that.

        Mixing some horses into a herd of cows is good for the ecology because multi species grazing is helpful to the land.  Running a few goats and sheep in the mix would be even more ecological but ranchers don’t do that.

        Some bigshot owners who pay $50,000 for a yearling might think of budgeting $5,000 less and then putting that money into supporting seven horses retired from the racing stable. 

        It does not do much good to grain and shelter and pamper retired horses if the costs mean that race owners won’t budget for that added post racing expense.

        It is amazing that people who spend reallly big bucks for a prospect could care less if the stable help are in substandard housing or if the failed race horses just wind up in a killing pen.  There has never been enough attention paid to the big picture.

        Five or six years ago I was at an auction near Denver in the early summer and a nice fat two year old registered Appaloosa stallion was led into the ring – and sold for $200 to the bottom end buyer from the packing house.  Would not have been surprised if the seller just bred their mare again to raise a hobby foal for which there was no future….. 

        Thatls the down side of horses…. they are just something to try to make a living from, or get some pleasure from,  as long as they are useful.  go on equine.com or equine now and see how many older mares people are trying to unload.

        • Larry Ensor

          Terrang, Maybe it will work if there are Ranchers that think that it would be worth the work for the money. I’ve lived in Colorado, front range and mountains from time to time since 76 and know the surrounding states pretty well. A friend of mine in Wyoming runs a lot of cows and he was telling me last week that it is going to cost him around $1,000 in hay to get each one through the winter. The TRF got a lot of negative press last year when some ranchers who were being paid more then $700 did not live up to their obligations. Hay prices are through the roof everywhere in the country. I was lucky to get 2+ decent cuttings this season enough to get us through the winter but no gravy. If we had to buy hay the yearly cost for our retirees would be much higher. I left the out in my post, sorry. Yes, wild horse do just fine for the most part but they have adapted. I’ve seen ranch horses in a blizzards who did just fine also. I have also seen plenty of abandoned horses in New Mexico that look like a rack of bones and wished I had a gun to put them out of their misery. We don’t “pamper” our Thoroughbreds, they are horses after all but we do look after them in the way then need to be. Yes we grain them easier then throwing extra hay and cost about the same. I am with you on everything you say in your post, don’t get me wrong any idea is better then none. I am just pointing out some realities that I know of. Let us know how you make out I applaud your enthusiasm.

        • Merasmag

          wow that makes me sick

  • terrang

    Re: the cost of keeping old barren mares.
    Out here in the west a rancher will run a cow and its calf all year and hope to get $500 for the calf.

    I’ve often thought racing owners should approach these ranchers and guarantee them $700 to let a retired horse run free over the range during a year.  This would greatly reduce the maintenance cost for the owner, allow the horse to run free in the wild so to speak as it was intended to do.  

    People like Stronach and Claiborne and Warren in California and Phipps (who are connected with the King Ranch) etc. could do this if they had a mind to.   How much money do they have to wring out of their operation though is their business.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Barbara,

    My posts have always contained a link to my site so I have never hideen anything because I stand behind what I say and have no reason to hide.

    And I do run a business but I have a solid track record and don’t slam other businesses for fear of losing potential customers that I honestly don’t need.

  • Larry Ensor

    Terrang, On face value it sound like a good idea. But cattle are ruminants, meaning they have digestive systems that allows them to live on just about anything they can find to eat. Which is why they have adopted well to western range land. Horses are not built the same and Thoroughbreds would starve to death. They could get by in the late spring to early fall depending on the area and type of available forage with decent growing conditions but not the winter.

    It costs us around on average around $1,500 a year to properly look after a retired TB.
    That includes, 6-9 lbs of quality feed and 15 lbs of hay per day during the winter months,
    Vaccinations, trimming when needed, blanketed when needed, basic shelter and decent grass during the growing season. Basic vet. This does not include the cost of the land nor fencing, repair and maintenance, taxes etc.. Which we have to do anyway.

  • Tom

    Ray,

    Yes, you are being naive.  In a general sense, I completely agree that the partnership process is key to getting more people involved in racing.  But Frank’s way simply is not the way to do it.  Frankly, I see it as possibly doing more harm to those who get involved in his ventures and having a reverse effect by driving people away.

    Just like Stewart, I have been a partnership manager in MD for over 10 years.  The one thing that sets me apart from most is that I do not charge any management fees.  There are no mark-ups.  I buy my units of ownership just as everyone else does.  I make nothing unless everyone else makes something, and that’s only based on my % of ownership.  Admin costs include win photos, stamps, photo mailers, and that’s about it.  I do monthly financial reports that details every check I write so everyone knows exactly where the money is being spent and how much we have on hand at any given time.

    Partnerships like mine are the way to get more people involved because IT GETS THEM INVOLVED!!!.  My partners come to the track, they go in the paddock, they stand in the win circle photos, they talk to our trainer, they participate in the claim process, they receive weekly email updates, etc., etc. etc.  And through all of this, my latest partnership has managed to turn a profit for 3 of the last 4 years by claiming and racing horses that we’ve never spent more than $12.5k on.

    Yet, I couldn’t find many to get involved in any new partnership I would want to start today because I would want to race in MD.  Frank has destroyed MD racing which makes it very unattractive for any potential new partner to come into the fold.  How do I market MD racing to anyone?  If a new prospective owner asked me if I thought MD will race next year, what would I tell them?  If I were asked if purses will be going up soon, I’d have to tell them no and then try to explain that Frank took all the extra purse money from slots that was slated to boost purses this year just so we could run enough dates in 2012 to make it feasible to even stay in the state.

    Is Frank the kind of guy I want to give money to to be in his partnership?  Absolutely not.  Do I like the idea of getting more people involved?  Absolutely!!

    If you want to tout partnerships, then look at the ones like Stewart’s and mine.  We don’t give people a paper dream, we provide an exciting reality.

  • Merasmag

    u call it off-topic…i call it rightonpoint

    pots sknot call kettles black

  • Barbara

    Stewart, I have never heard of you, ever, and I never cared enough to look you up in a link to your profile. If you are so transparent, why not take the work out of it and just post both names if this is such a requirement for you of others here?

    I’m happy for you that you don’t care if you “lose” potential customers you honestly never needed in the first place;-) Hoping you place a higher value on the clients you do have!

    I never took your comments here about Frank’s latest plan to finance his racing ventures as motivated by your own desire for personal success, maybe just a pat on your own back. It’s healthy to have such a lovely self image of yourself, too. Happy New Year.

    • Barbara

      ps I am disqus impaired and find using the out of chronological sequence posting system and specific post reply too daunting.The upside is I will post less;-)

      • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

        Barbara,

        You love slinging mud and this is the only reason I asked you for your entire name.  The latest post to me was pointless but if you are going to twist my words and say I don’t care about my existing Partners then you should at least have the guts to tell people who you are. 

        And the “profile” I am referring to is the simple URL link your can add to your name when posting (notice how some names are red and some are black?  The ones that are red have a link to their web sites…not a big effort to see who the person is). 

        I don’t get your point about me patting myself on the back.  But it doesn’t really surprise me since you like to throw derogatory remarks about others. 

        And you haven’t hear of me?  Did I say you should have?  Am I missing something?  I gave a very short background of myself because it was appropriate based on Ray’s comments.  What I stated are simple facts and only someone who is trying to give themselves a pat on the back would make a ridiculous claim that I have such a high self image of myself.

        Take you own advice and get off your high horse.  And Happy New Year to you.

  • Barbara

    Stewart, I have never heard of you, ever, and I never cared enough to look you up in a link to your profile. If you are so transparent, why not take the work out of it and just post both names if this is such a requirement for you of others here?

    I’m happy for you that you don’t care if you “lose” potential customers you honestly never needed in the first place;-) Hoping you place a higher value on the clients you do have!

    I never took your comments here about Frank’s latest plan to finance his racing ventures as motivated by your own desire for personal success, maybe just a pat on your own back. It’s healthy to have such a lovely self image of yourself, too. Happy New Year.

  • Barbara

    ps I am disqus impaired and find using the out of chronological sequence posting system and specific post reply too daunting.The upside is I will post less;-)

  • terrang

    I am not backing off my idea that quickly.
    Believe it or not cattle can’t exist year round on the grazing here on the plains either. So the cattlemen feed them hay in the winter. So the horses would be fed too.

    No, they would not get hay and vitamins and shots – unless brought in twice a year for processing in a squeeze chute …. but wild horses survive without grain. Imagine that.

    Yes, the horses retired to a ranch would live a wild life but I bet every day they spend roaming on mesas and in valleys would be worth a week at a pampering farm.  Imagine a horse roamng over thousands of acres every year instead of just within a 20 acre paddock if that.

    Mixing some horses into a herd of cows is good for the ecology because multi species grazing is helpful to the land.  Running a few goats and sheep in the mix would be even more ecological but ranchers don’t do that.

    Some bigshot owners who pay $50,000 for a yearling might think of budgeting $5,000 less and then putting that money into supporting seven horses retired from the racing stable. 

    It does not do much good to grain and shelter and pamper retired horses if the costs mean that race owners won’t budget for that added post racing expense.

    It is amazing that people who spend reallly big bucks for a prospect could care less if the stable help are in substandard housing or if the failed race horses just wind up in a killing pen.  There has never been enough attention paid to the big picture.

    Five or six years ago I was at an auction near Denver in the early summer and a nice fat two year old registered Appaloosa stallion was led into the ring – and sold for $200 to the bottom end buyer from the packing house.  Would not have been surprised if the seller just bred their mare again to raise a hobby foal for which there was no future….. 

    Thatls the down side of horses…. they are just something to try to make a living from, or get some pleasure from,  as long as they are useful.  go on equine.com or equine now and see how many older mares people are trying to unload.

  • Larry Ensor

    Terrang, Maybe it will work if there are Ranchers that think that it would be worth the work for the money. I’ve lived in Colorado, front range and mountains from time to time since 76 and know the surrounding states pretty well. A friend of mine in Wyoming runs a lot of cows and he was telling me last week that it is going to cost him around $1,000 in hay to get each one through the winter. The TRF got a lot of negative press last year when some ranchers who were being paid more then $700 did not live up to their obligations. Hay prices are through the roof everywhere in the country. I was lucky to get 2+ decent cuttings this season enough to get us through the winter but no gravy. If we had to buy hay the yearly cost for our retirees would be much higher. I left the out in my post, sorry. Yes, wild horse do just fine for the most part but they have adapted. I’ve seen ranch horses in a blizzards who did just fine also. I have also seen plenty of abandoned horses in New Mexico that look like a rack of bones and wished I had a gun to put them out of their misery. We don’t “pamper” our Thoroughbreds, they are horses after all but we do look after them in the way then need to be. Yes we grain them easier then throwing extra hay and cost about the same. I am with you on everything you say in your post, don’t get me wrong any idea is better then none. I am just pointing out some realities that I know of. Let us know how you make out I applaud your enthusiasm.

  • dh

    I have a business degree from the Univ. of Maryland and I have been involved in horse racing as either an owner, trainer, and breeder for 17 years now. I understand the economics and business side of horse racing very well thank you. I also respect your opinion and I really enjoy your blogs about Stronach and the situation regarding Maryland racing. However, I must repeat my position, BETRAYAL is an awful trait. Those mares deserve better and you know it. I’m sure you could make it work. Killing horses because they no longer make us money is not why we got into this game. I guess we are different. I see a sunset and think ”I hope I see another one as beautiful tomorrow”, you see a sunset and think “well its dark out”. So be it.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Lane,

    I took a company public before and know the SEC rules.  The S-1 is already PUBLIC information and there is no reason not to discuss information that is already PUBLIC.  However, since many of the questions raised in the thread expose major issues in the offering, any response would be high level and worthless anyway.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Barbara,

    You love slinging mud and this is the only reason I asked you for your entire name.  The latest post to me was pointless but if you are going to twist my words and say I don’t care about my existing Partners then you should at least have the guts to tell people who you are. 

    And the “profile” I am referring to is the simple URL link your can add to your name when posting (notice how some names are red and some are black?  The ones that are red have a link to their web sites…not a big effort to see who the person is). 

    I don’t get your point about me patting myself on the back.  But it doesn’t really surprise me since you like to throw derogatory remarks about others. 

    And you haven’t hear of me?  Did I say you should have?  Am I missing something?  I gave a very short background of myself because it was appropriate based on Ray’s comments.  What I stated are simple facts and only someone who is trying to give themselves a pat on the back would make a ridiculous claim that I have such a high self image of myself.

    Take you own advice and get off your high horse.  And Happy New Year to you.

  • CameronB

    While I thoroughly recognize the chance for profit is extremely unlikely. I think this is a good idea. As a student I currently lack the income to invest into an “actual” partnership, but have enjoyed following and learning more about the sport. Putting a small insignificant ammount of money into each one of the possible 6 partnerships, gives me an opportunity to A) Feel a part of the industry (in some small way), and B) a tiny chance that i may be able to one day say I was “part” owner of a horse that won such and such a race.

    I hope this comes to fruition, and hold out more hope that the people who run this partnership are able to put together a decent website to help people track the horses and their progress.

    • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

      If you read the valid comments on this thread, the issue isn’t whether or not you will make a profit.  The issue is you will be buying into a Partnership that seems to be padded with excessive fees and benefits the managers / owners of the Partnership far more than the investors.  If you are OK with this then go ahead and join.  Otherwise, there are much better options for you.

      • Larry Ensor

        I agree with Steward this is extremely front end loaded especially given the risk to return to return, be it money or fun. Personally I have always felt that the managers should be compensated based on performance at the back end. One offering already has 3, 15% of the horses on the side lines. 2 with unspecified tendon issues and 1 with a Suspensory. Not having an MBA I would like to know the thinking behind structuring a “racing partnership” this way. Given the expensive filing fees and all the other associated cost. Instead of the “traditional’ syndicated racing partnerships. Lucrative tax benefits for the offering company, owner?

    • Larry Ensor

      Though a number is not stated I do remember reading there is a minimum number of shares an investor is required to purchase. Pretty standard in these sort of offerings. Also per SEC rules the company has to “vet” the potential investor as to their “suitability”. See Summary of the Offering.

    • johnnyknj

      There are better ways to get involve than a bureaucratic and fee heavy venture run by a man who seems to lose money for everyone but himself. I will use our small racing partnership as an example: Over the last 13 months (since inception as they say with mutual funds) we have contributed a total of $50,000 in investment capitol. We have claimed and/or bought 7 horses. We have had three claimed away. Our race record is 20-9-2-2, $141,250. We currently have four horses in training with approx. $80,000 in partner equity and $50,000 cash on hand. Yes, we’ve been lucky, but we have also been careful and done our homework.   I offer this not to toot our own horn (well, a little tooting) but to show that you can do this on a modest level, be as  involved as you care to, have fun and not lose money.

  • CameronB

    While I thoroughly recognize the chance for profit is extremely unlikely. I think this is a good idea. As a student I currently lack the income to invest into an “actual” partnership, but have enjoyed following and learning more about the sport. Putting a small insignificant ammount of money into each one of the possible 6 partnerships, gives me an opportunity to A) Feel a part of the industry (in some small way), and B) a tiny chance that i may be able to one day say I was “part” owner of a horse that won such and such a race.

    I hope this comes to fruition, and hold out more hope that the people who run this partnership are able to put together a decent website to help people track the horses and their progress.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    If you read the valid comments on this thread, the issue isn’t whether or not you will make a profit.  The issue is you will be buying into a Partnership that seems to be padded with excessive fees and benefits the managers / owners of the Partnership far more than the investors.  If you are OK with this then go ahead and join.  Otherwise, there are much better options for you.

  • BELLWETHER

    FRANK NEEDS TO LISTEN TO THE RITE PEOPLE…TELL HIM ITS TIME TO STEP OUT “THE BOX” BABY!!!…TY…

  • James Staples

    RAY…WHERE IS THE BULL HALL SEA MINOR PIECE WITH MAGNA’S CFO???…IT FLEW AWAY???…ty…

  • James Staples

    RAY…WHERE IS THE BULL HALL SEA MINOR PIECE WITH MAGNA’S CFO???…IT FLEW AWAY???…ty…

  • Larry Ensor

    Though a number is not stated I do remember reading there is a minimum number of shares an investor is required to purchase. Pretty standard in these sort of offerings. Also per SEC rules the company has to “vet” the potential investor as to their “suitability”. See Summary of the Offering.

  • Larry Ensor

    I agree with Steward this is extremely front end loaded especially given the risk to return to return, be it money or fun. Personally I have always felt that the managers should be compensated based on performance at the back end. One offering already has 3, 15% of the horses on the side lines. 2 with unspecified tendon issues and 1 with a Suspensory. Not having an MBA I would like to know the thinking behind structuring a “racing partnership” this way. Given the expensive filing fees and all the other associated cost. Instead of the “traditional’ syndicated racing partnerships. Lucrative tax benefits for the offering company, owner?

  • sittin’ chilly

    There are better ways to get involve than a bureaucratic and fee heavy venture run by a man who seems to lose money for everyone but himself. I will use our small racing partnership as an example: Over the last 13 months (since inception as they say with mutual funds) we have contributed a total of $50,000 in investment capitol. We have claimed and/or bought 7 horses. We have had three claimed away. Our race record is 20-9-2-2, $141,250. We currently have four horses in training with approx. $80,000 in partner equity and $50,000 cash on hand. Yes, we’ve been lucky, but we have also been careful and done our homework.   I offer this not to toot our own horn (well, a little tooting) but to show that you can do this on a modest level, be as  involved as you care to, have fun and not lose money.

  • Barbara

    I don’t know the minimum share purchase that will be required, but let’s say you invest $1,000, you have 100 shares in one or more of the partnerships. You do it for fun only (as you easily recognize the high fees but like the idea of being involved with a well known stable and group of professionals as your entry to the game, at a price point that is entirely comfortable.) At the end of
    2013 you like the game so much, you now seek out a smaller, more
    traditional partnership or form your own with friends? Where is the downside?

    • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

      If you can get past the principal of knowing someone is pocketing high amounts of money in a deceptive fashion, why would you want to invest $1,000 for horses your will likely never see and certainly won’t be able to get in the Winner’s Circle with?  I honestly think you would get the same level of excitement by setting up a virtual stable.  I may be too close to this and know how deceptive this offering is so maybe I am biased but I just don’t see the fun being 1 of thousands of owners in horses that you will have little to no interaction with.

      • Barbara

        I think many feel able to read a prospectus, deduce the value they perceive as an individual, and move forward accordingly. The filing is hardly deceptive. Quite the opposite. And it might interest newcomers in this offering, and then upon further research, they will try one of the more established, and as you note, accessible partnerships?

        I think Ray should start a series on racing partnerships, various methods they employ to structure and market their respective efforts, and highlight a different one every week.

        • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

          Barbara,

          If you don’t think this is deceptive then I don’t know what to tell you.  And since you have some level of experience with racing, how will others with no experience be able to vet this.  They won’t.  They won’t know it doesn’t cost $150 for a horse to stand in a field and eat grass.  They won’t know that Stronach is breaking the horses on his own property and marking up these fees.  They won’t know many things related to racing and racing expenses because they have no experience in racing.  You have many people on this site who make a living in the industry and the majority are saying the markups are ludicrous, the offering is absolutely deceptive to anyone who isn’t familiar with costs associated with racing and the “brains” behind these offerings has a horrible track record when it comes to what he says he wants to do and what actually ends up happening.

          The average person cannot read the S-1 and deduce much other than it is a $10 investment and they will be able to own a very small percentage of horses.  This isn’t because they aren’t intelligent, it is because there isn’t a handbook on thoroughbred ownership that covers all the basics (although you can reference thegreatestgame.com but people outside of racing will likely not find this information).

          I guess it is time to wind down the debate.  Good luck if you decide to participate.

          • Barbara

            My point was just that if you invest not expecting any return, but to learn the game by doing so, then it is a silver lining and no harm, no foul to such an “investor”? My claim about transparency is that I didn’t find it that hard to trace the declarations of all the The Stronach Group layers of involvement and Google can be a very good due diligence partner to anyone. The proposition that any investor will probably not gain value, will lose investment, and the shares will not trade nor have actual value seemed clear enough to me.

            Believe me, not a chance in hell I would invest, and the more I read the prospectus the more incredulous I become. But damn, I will give it to that group for sheer chutzpah. Alpen House rules;-)

            Thanks for the temperate reply and your insight as well Stewart. I will go read Zorn now.

          • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

            Barbara,

            I don’t see how anyone will learn much of anything about the game when they own such an insignificant % of a Partnership and since the feedback on the Adena Springs Partnerships are poor in terms of communication and Partner involvement.  My concern is the person who is actually expecting some type of experience (not financial) because they are involved in this deal only to get sour because the experience is nothing more than adding horses to your virtual stable and watching them run.  This is obviously not what the horse ownership experience is supposed to be about but odds are this is the best you can expect with the offering Frank has put together.

            Zorn does a very good job summarzing points raised in this thread as well as adding additional information based on his research.  To say there is nothing good to be found in an understatement.

          • Merasmag

            i just dont unnerstand why people who think this is a good idea don’t seek out REAL opportunities…

  • Barbara

    I don’t know the minimum share purchase that will be required, but let’s say you invest $1,000, you have 100 shares in one or more of the partnerships. You do it for fun only (as you easily recognize the high fees but like the idea of being involved with a well known stable and group of professionals as your entry to the game, at a price point that is entirely comfortable.) At the end of
    2013 you like the game so much, you now seek out a smaller, more
    traditional partnership or form your own with friends? Where is the downside?

  • Backontop

    There is one sure fire way to make money here: 
    Book all 6 partnerships and settle up in the end, 2013! Oh wait, Stronach already figured that out, LOL!

  • Backontop

    There is one sure fire way to make money here: 
    Book all 6 partnerships and settle up in the end, 2013! Oh wait, Stronach already figured that out, LOL!

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    If you can get past the principal of knowing someone is pocketing high amounts of money in a deceptive fashion, why would you want to invest $1,000 for horses your will likely never see and certainly won’t be able to get in the Winner’s Circle with?  I honestly think you would get the same level of excitement by setting up a virtual stable.  I may be too close to this and know how deceptive this offering is so maybe I am biased but I just don’t see the fun being 1 of thousands of owners in horses that you will have little to no interaction with.

  • Barbara

    I think many feel able to read a prospectus, deduce the value they perceive as an individual, and move forward accordingly. The filing is hardly deceptive. Quite the opposite. And it might interest newcomers in this offering, and then upon further research, they will try one of the more established, and as you note, accessible partnerships?

    I think Ray should start a series on racing partnerships, various methods they employ to structure and market their respective efforts, and highlight a different one every week.

  • Buglet

    This is a money scam. Nothing more.

    Kind of reminds me of CDI’s non-refundable $50 “administrative fee” to apply for Derby seats.

  • Buglet

    This is a money scam. Nothing more.

    Kind of reminds me of CDI’s non-refundable $50 “administrative fee” to apply for Derby seats.

  • Larry Ensor

    I think we are in record posting territory with this one

  • Larry Ensor

    I think we are in record posting territory with this one

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Barbara,

    If you don’t think this is deceptive then I don’t know what to tell you.  And since you have some level of experience with racing, how will others with no experience be able to vet this.  They won’t.  They won’t know it doesn’t cost $150 for a horse to stand in a field and eat grass.  They won’t know that Stronach is breaking the horses on his own property and marking up these fees.  They won’t know many things related to racing and racing expenses because they have no experience in racing.  You have many people on this site who make a living in the industry and the majority are saying the markups are ludicrous, the offering is absolutely deceptive to anyone who isn’t familiar with costs associated with racing and the “brains” behind these offerings has a horrible track record when it comes to what he says he wants to do and what actually ends up happening.

    The average person cannot read the S-1 and deduce much other than it is a $10 investment and they will be able to own a very small percentage of horses.  This isn’t because they aren’t intelligent, it is because there isn’t a handbook on thoroughbred ownership that covers all the basics (although you can reference thegreatestgame.com but people outside of racing will likely not find this information).

    I guess it is time to wind down the debate.  Good luck if you decide to participate.

  • Phdiers

    Count me in!

  • Phdiers

    Count me in!

  • Stephen Zorn

    Didn’t want to add another 1,000 words to this thread, but I’ve tried to sum up the argument against this offering in my blog, 
    http://businessofracing.blogspot.com/2012/01/there-he-goes-again-stronachs-10-share.html. It even has pictures!

    • Backontop

      Mr. Zorn’s blog is a must read for everyone here. If by chance you are interested in Mr. Stronach’s scheme then it should be mandatory that you read it at least twice!

  • Stephen Zorn

    Didn’t want to add another 1,000 words to this thread, but I’ve tried to sum up the argument against this offering in my blog, 
    http://businessofracing.blogsp…. It even has pictures!

  • Backontop

    Mr. Zorn’s blog is a must read for everyone here. If by chance you are interested in Mr. Stronach’s scheme then it should be mandatory that you read it at least twice!

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Stephen Zorn’s blog is must reading for anyone who posted on this topic…congratulations on a splendid job. It also occurs to me that the paulick report is dependent on its advertisers, as are we who wish to have this forum, and since Xpressbet is an advertiser, we must give Ray a pass on his seemingly incomprehensible support for this idea. Please do not let the terrible damage that Stronach has done to Maryland horsemen go unnoticed in the national industry…that is all I ask. There are many here who have been financially destroyed by this man through no fault of their own…do not let their distress and suffering be in vain.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Stephen Zorn’s blog is must reading for anyone who posted on this topic…congratulations on a splendid job. It also occurs to me that the paulick report is dependent on its advertisers, as are we who wish to have this forum, and since Xpressbet is an advertiser, we must give Ray a pass on his seemingly incomprehensible support for this idea. Please do not let the terrible damage that Stronach has done to Maryland horsemen go unnoticed in the national industry…that is all I ask. There are many here who have been financially destroyed by this man through no fault of their own…do not let their distress and suffering be in vain.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/MyBig-Red/100000980578079 MyBig Red

    I want in as well :) Can I purchase a share of my favorite girl, Awesome Feather ?? I just love this Filly !!

    • Cynthia McGinnes

      Unfortunately no. You can only buy into syndicates of unproven yearlings.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/MyBig-Red/100000980578079 MyBig Red

    I want in as well :) Can I purchase a share of my favorite girl, Awesome Feather ?? I just love this Filly !!

  • Ida

    I finally got to read this article. Sounds like fun. I just asked my husband to follow up on this.  At $10 a share, I would take a chance at race horse ownership. Wow…this is going to be fun. Of course, as with all investments, large or small, you only invest what can be lost without a second thought. If you make money, that’s great, if you don’t, it will not make a difference in your life.

    • Cynthia McGinnes

      Actually, with most investments,,you don’t expect to lose money, you expect to make money. This is why we have so many who spend their working lives researching investments on the stock market. This is why pension funds have to be so carefully invested, to provide income for future pension benefits. Hopefully your husband understands this! I am curious if you were ever fortunate enough to  take a class inEconomics 101 :-)

  • Ida

    I finally got to read this article. Sounds like fun. I just asked my husband to follow up on this.  At $10 a share, I would take a chance at race horse ownership. Wow…this is going to be fun. Of course, as with all investments, large or small, you only invest what can be lost without a second thought. If you make money, that’s great, if you don’t, it will not make a difference in your life.

  • johnnyknj

    Some of the posters on here seem bound to prove P.T. Barnum correct yet again.

    • Backontop

      In the spirit of Mr. P.T. Barnum my father once told that there was a sucker born every minute and it was his mission in life to find each and every one of them. He would have had a field day with many in this group!!!!

  • sittin’ chilly

    Some of the posters on here seem bound to prove P.T. Barnum correct yet again.

  • Backontop

    In the spirit of Mr. P.T. Barnum my father once told that there was a sucker born every minute and it was his mission in life to find each and every one of them. He would have had a field day with many in this group!!!!

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Unfortunately no. You can only buy into syndicates of unproven yearlings.

  • Cynthia McGinnes

    Actually, with most investments,,you don’t expect to lose money, you expect to make money. This is why we have so many who spend their working lives researching investments on the stock market. This is why pension funds have to be so carefully invested, to provide income for future pension benefits. Hopefully your husband understands this! I am curious if you were ever fortunate enough to  take a class inEconomics 101 :-)

  • Not Shocked

    Don’t worry Cynthia, They will just follow your business plan, and kill the horses when they are no longer profitable.

  • Barbara

    My point was just that if you invest not expecting any return, but to learn the game by doing so, then it is a silver lining and no harm, no foul to such an “investor”? My claim about transparency is that I didn’t find it that hard to trace the declarations of all the The Stronach Group layers of involvement and Google can be a very good due diligence partner to anyone. The proposition that any investor will probably not gain value, will lose investment, and the shares will not trade nor have actual value seemed clear enough to me.

    Believe me, not a chance in hell I would invest, and the more I read the prospectus the more incredulous I become. But damn, I will give it to that group for sheer chutzpah. Alpen House rules;-)

    Thanks for the temperate reply and your insight as well Stewart. I will go read Zorn now.

  • http://www.winnerscirclepartners.com/ Stewart

    Barbara,

    I don’t see how anyone will learn much of anything about the game when they own such an insignificant % of a Partnership and since the feedback on the Adena Springs Partnerships are poor in terms of communication and Partner involvement.  My concern is the person who is actually expecting some type of experience (not financial) because they are involved in this deal only to get sour because the experience is nothing more than adding horses to your virtual stable and watching them run.  This is obviously not what the horse ownership experience is supposed to be about but odds are this is the best you can expect with the offering Frank has put together.

    Zorn does a very good job summarzing points raised in this thread as well as adding additional information based on his research.  To say there is nothing good to be found in an understatement.

  • Merasmag

    i just dont unnerstand why people who think this is a good idea don’t seek out REAL opportunities…

  • Merasmag

    wow that makes me sick

  • Merasmag

    so stronach killed your business and your mares because of what he said a year ago? U told sum other poster who said they wanted2invest they mustve never taken eco101…if u truly meant what u said i will state WITH CERTAINTY u never took logic

  • Merasmag

    i was drunk the firstX i read this so i dknotreply…i am drunk again but this comment wknot make any more sense2me sober…how about a poll…invest w/frank or that dictator guy???

  • Merasmag

    cmon ray…ask matt2dueit…

  • Merasmag

    any half-assed fan with halfabrain knew 3 years ago maryland racing was on its last legs…stronach has done worse to bettervenues IMO

  • Jan

    I just read this and I want in!

  • Jan

    I just read this and I want in!

  • Merasmag

    cmon ray…ask matt2dueit…

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