PERSPECTIVE
By Ray Paulick
There has been a lot written and said about Zenyatta over the past week since the unbeaten daughter of Street Cry extended her winning streak to 17 races in last Sunday’s Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park—and not all of it was very nice.
It certainly didn’t start with the heated discussion between veteran handicapper and author Steve Davidowitz and radio host Steve Byk on a Wednesday night webcast when Davidowitz called Zenyatta the best older mare he has ever seen–a conviction Byk called “ridiculous.” We detailed that argument here the following morning but had no idea how bitter and divisive readers could get over the way Zenyatta has been handled during her career or whether she deserved the 2009 Horse of the Year title won by the rival she has never met on the racetrack, Rachel Alexandra. Frankly, many of the comments were vicious, mean-spirited and appalling.
On Friday, I read something that added some much-needed perspective to the subject, and it reminded me that those who spoil the air surrounding these two outstanding fillies are missing out on a greater point: that we are so very fortunate to have witnessed what both Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra have accomplished.
The perspective came by way of New York Thoroughbred owner and breeder Charles Harris, who has been writing a blog the past 15 months about his life with incurable cancer. As his days on earth dwindle, his appreciation for life grows.
In a blog entry earlier this week, Charlie wrote about a Sunday drive with his wife and friends from New York to New Haven, Conn., to make his initial visit to the Yale Center for British Art, a museum founded by the late Paul Mellon and displaying a large collection of equine paintings by 18th Century artist George Stubbs. Charlie hopes to feature the Stubbs painting, A Horse Frightened by a Lion, on the dust jacket of the book that Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press is publishing later this year on his personal battle with cancer: “Incurable: A Life After Diagnosis…” (For more information, click here.)
Sunday ended back at his New York City home, where Charlie and his son watched the live telecast of Zenyatta’s exciting victory in the Vanity. He didn’t say much about the race, but those few words he wrote added some perspective for me. Perhaps they will for you, too.
Click here to read Charles Harris’ blog entry, “Witness to Greatness.”
Tags: Rachel Alexandra, Ray Paulick, steve byk, steve davidowitz, zenyatta
June 19th, 2010 at 1:15 am
I never thought I would ever see a race horse as fast as Dr. Fager, Seattle Slew or Spectacular Bid in my life time but sure enough along came the best race horse I ever seen. Zenyatta. All the media hype about Secretariat was nothing but liberal sports writers trying to act like they knew something about race horses. Hell he lost three races in a year. No one has beaten Zenyatta and they won’t.
Buddy
June 19th, 2010 at 1:41 am
Thank you for writing this, Ray. I also am appalled by the ugly and often vicious attacks on Zenyatta. There is one individual in particular who trolls more than a dozen sites and repeatedly trashes this undefeated mare who has won 17 races by calling her a “regional, poly horse” and similar tripe. These are not real race fans, but people who think they’re still screaming about politics or something.
These detractors have no concept how hard it is for Thoroughbreds to win two or three races in a row, let alone 17. Factor in Zenyatta’s deep closer running style and it is frankly amazing she has been able to do this.
My take on the viciousness directed at this mare is this…it boils down to turf writers and so called “fans” of horse racing who harbor an intense hatred of synthetic racing surfaces and down-rate the horses that run over them; bitter Rachel Alexandra fans who are furious their favorite lost two races this year so they must attack Zenyatta to pump up Rachel; and those on the East Coast who just hate California racing.
A few turf writers at Bloodhorse, ESPN and elsewhere also go out of their way attempting to disparage this champion horse and eagerly run comments from the Z-haters on their columns. Zenyatta is the only one these writers attack. What sad little people they are to savage a great Thoroughbred racemare, the likes of whom we may never see again once she retires for good.
June 19th, 2010 at 3:12 am
Why is it so difficult for people to just sit back and enjoy this rare opportunity we all have to watch and enjoy these two wonderful horses run? Why does it matter which one is the “better” of the two? Its all just talk anyway until if and when they meet on the track. Even at that point one horse is still older and more experienced than the other so is a head to head comparison even fair?
Then there are those who go a step further and try and compare Zenyatta to greats of the past like Secretariat! What is the point? Its like comparing baseball players of today to those greats of the past. In both cases the game has changed so much that such comparisons are useless. The fact is that any such comparison even between Rachel and Zenyatta is nothing more than subjective opinion.
However to trash either horse is both ignorant and childish. This is HORSERACING people! Its a sport and as such it should include at least SOME SPORTSMANSHIP and a little respect towards the horses that compete and their connections. Such trashing of either horse is an embarrassment for the sport. Remember both of these horses could have easily been retired at the end of last year. Their owners kept them running when neither horse really needed to prove anything more. Foals out of these horses would have already been worth many millions so any added earnings really is not worth the added risk both camps are taking by still racing.
The owners of these two fine runners kept them in the game for the fans to enjoy and to help the game by providing added excitement which it sorely needs. How are they rewarded? By stupid comments and trash talk from ungrateful idiots. Its no wonder racing has the problems it does, even some of the fans dont seem to know a good thing when they see it!
Hell, just be happy to have had the opportunity to have seen both of these terrific horses run.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:24 am
I ‘d like to think that many of us witness greatness every day. It is our perception of life in general. Maybe that’s the difference between those who recognize what is great about the game we love. Good luck and Many Blessings to Charlie and his family. If horses can bring joy into our hearts, then it doesn’t get much better than that.
And Ray, thanks for turning yesterday’s negativity into positivity. Not sure that’s a word, but it works for me.
June 19th, 2010 at 6:34 am
#3. You put it the best I have ever read.
Ray, thanks for pointing out Charlie Harris’s brave battle…I lost my Dad to long term cancer…it taught us to weed out the vain and petty and speak truth to “love”…
As far as the horses go, each one runs to the level of their gift…same heart, same try, just not the same talent. It’s not their fault they are not as fast as another….
June 19th, 2010 at 6:48 am
Thank You Mr. Paulick…
June 19th, 2010 at 6:49 am
I didn’t hear the argument between Mr. Byk and Mr. Davidovitz because Mr. Byk’s show is in radio limbo at the moment. I do listen to Mr. Byk on my way home from work;t he does tend to get over-wrought about certain subjects; on one occasion he railed agaisnt the the great Cigar, screaming ( yes screaming) that Cigar was overrated and didn’t beat anything, blah, blah, blah; I could hardly stand to listen to his rant. Steve Haskin was arguing with him that day trying to prove him wrong; nevertheless I do listen to Mr. Byk’s program because I love horseracing and there really isn’t any other national program to lsiten to; Zenyatta is a great mare and will go down in history as such; She has won several grade 1’s and proved her mettle in the Breeder’s Cup last year. Frankly, I think any argument against her is silly. history will show she was one of the greatest mares to ever grace a track.
June 19th, 2010 at 8:16 am
Frankly, the substance of this ongoing “issue” has been, with the exception Byk’s style and a few over-the-top comments, both overblown and badly misunderstood by Zenyatta’s adoring fans.
I contributed several comments to the original thread, and every single one of them underscored the rather obvious point that while Zenyatta is a truly extraordinary, top-class racehorse, she is not of the caliber of the very best of her gender to have raced over the past 25 years.
The notion, as expressed by some of Z’s emotional fans, that pointing out that fact is somehow a disparagement, or a belittling of the mare, is absolutely ridiculous. Horse racing would not exist were it not for the challenge of distinguishing the caliber of the animals which compete, and given how many people apparently misunderstand how to make such distinctions, doing so in this context is actually a very useful exercise.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:31 am
Gosh Jeremy Jet, I don’t think we need to race horses at all. I think we should just line them up in front of you, and then you can proclaim who is the best and we can be done with it.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:39 am
Zenyatta’s record speaks for itself. While Z has always been my favorite, I am a huge fan of Rachel’s also. At the time, I eagerly anticipated the Race of the Century, the meeting of two great mares with opposite running styles in the Apple Blossom, both recently freshened, on a track both favored. After all this negativity and ill will, I no longer have a desire to see the two in a race together; the excitement is gone. Zenyatta has been a huge gift to the industry. Will we see another horse surpass her accomplishments in our life times? Unlikely. So why was her latest goal of remaining undefeated with 17 consecutive wins not aggressively marketed by the racing industry to mass media news, sports, tv, radio and print mediums? Let’s face it, Zenyatta could be undefeated in 20 races and win the BC Classic again and still not be voted HOY.
Instead of sharing this phenomenal opportunity to promote not only Zenyatta, but record breaking history in the making, our industry once again cannot come together but prefers to keep polarizing itself into smaller and smaller turfdoms and fiefdoms until it is no more. The entire Zenyatta/Rachel discord stems from the 2009 Eclipse Award voters and lack of appropriate leadership. The turf writers in particular provided the fodder for fan discord by: repeatedly attacking their opponent horse, fueling the east is better than west coast debate even though the number of voters are based primarily on the east coast, downplaying Z’s accomplishments on poly because of their inability to handicap those races, their refusal to acknowledge that a G1 win is a G1 win regardless of its location, the quality of horses Z defeated in the Classic, and the ridiculous notion that they have a right to tell an owner when, where, what surface and track, and against which horses they should run their horse. Please for racing’s benefit, let’s try to refocus on celebrating our stars, the majesty and beauty of the sport, the human interest stories, and present industry plans and ideas for a rebirth in an intelligent, thoughtful manner to retain fans and participants, and attract new fans and owners.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:15 am
I’m glad I didn’t hear the program in question, because frankly, these people do more to harm than help to racing. Zen is one of the greatest mares in history. That is not only my assessment, but that of HOF trainers and jockeys, as well as most trainers and owners in the racing industry today. What proof is there? The very fact that they’re afraid to race her, even in the AB on dirt. When Jerry Bailey says she’s one of the best, when Ron Ellis says he’s in no hurry to race her, when JJ continues to duck her, the arguments against her become vindictive, petty and disrespectful.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:22 am
Thanks for sharing that, Ray. I was very moved. And I totally don’t understand why anyone has to belittle any horse who is so great. And that includes Rachel Alexander too.
By the way, the fact Zenyatta won 17 in a row was not reported in any newscasts that I saw. Really sad for horse racing.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:32 am
equine –
“Instead of sharing this phenomenal opportunity to promote not only Zenyatta, but record breaking history…”
This is exactly the sort of hogwash to which I was referring. Putting her accomplishments into their proper perspective do not in any way harm her exalted reputation, or work against the interests of the industry.
“…their refusal to acknowledge that a G1 win is a G1 win regardless of its location…”
This is exactly the kind of anti-intellectual nonsense that most of Zenyatta’s defenders typically rely on. It is, in fact, the polar opposite of the truth. A Grade I win in Uruguay is deeply inferior to a Grade I win in Chile, which is in turn often inferior to a Grade I win in Argentina. A Grade I win on the turf in the U.S. is, with rare exceptions, clearly inferior to a Grade I win in the UK. Etc., etc., etc.
“…the quality of horses Z defeated in the Classic…”
More uninformed tripe. That was clearly a modest quality field, given how few of the principals ran to their best. And given what the main yardstick (Gio Ponti) has done subsequently, Zenyatta’s performance, while thrilling, was not remotely comparable to numerous performances against top-class males by the likes of Goldikova, Zarkava, and Miesque, etc.
None of this means that Zenyatta shouldn’t be considered “great”, as she is a remarkable animal, and her unbeaten streak is also exceptional. She’s just not as good as most of her adoring fans imagine her to be.
June 19th, 2010 at 11:11 am
It seems that once again, people are missing the point of this article but feel the need to have their opinion of who is “the greatest” or “not worthy” validated. We are all privileged to watch greatness in both RA and Zenyatta, and it is that quality which we should all be celebrating. Instead we have taken the nastiness of cable news and radio talk shows and dragged it into a sport. That’s right, a sport. No one will die if Z loses her next race or if RA retires to the breeding shed tomorrow.
As a cancer survivor myself, I try to remind myself that it’s a good day because I could wake up and get out of bed without help. That thought doesn’t always last as I go through my very human day, but you know, catching a glimpse of my favorite horse on you tube helps put a smile on my face for the moment and reminds me to appreciate the ephemeral beauty of greatness.
June 19th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Jeremy,
Has Zenyatta run in Uruguay, Chile or Argentina? No. Equine’s point was clear to me; the reference was to Grade 1s on *dirt and synthetic tracks* here in the U.S., where Zenyatta races. Some of Zenyatta’s attackers maintain synthetic track Grade 1s in California aren’t as good as Grade 1s run on dirt tracks, due to their prejudice against synthetic surfaces.
As an aside, I’ve noticed your posts are generally insulting, labeling Zenyatta’s defenders “emotional” and their arguments are “uninformed tripe, hogwash, anti-intellectual nonsense,” because of course, you say so. I recommend you lose the condescending attitude and treat others with respect.
Also, you really should actually read Ray Paulick’s “Perspective” post. You need to gain some perspective yourself.
June 19th, 2010 at 11:29 am
Fluff at its finest.
June 19th, 2010 at 11:35 am
First of all, I’m a Zenyatta fan just as much as the next person, but anyone who thinks Zenyatta is faster or better than the likes of Dr. Fager, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid or Secretariat need to get a clue. These horses traveled from one end of the country to the other racing against the best available at all times. They didn’t sit over there in Cali running against the same group of out-classed fillies time after time. On top of that, Cali racing is a watered down version of what it use to be ten/fifteen years ago as less and less top horses have been sent east. Zenyatta’s win streak is great but it will always be remember as a streak that occured mainly in Cali. That’s it!…The Cali Win Streak!!
June 19th, 2010 at 11:40 am
CJ –
Every post I’ve made has been substantive, and my occasionally harsh tone is irrelevant to the facts of the matter.
By any serious observer’s standards, the BC Classic was weak, and the female competition that Zenyatta has consistently beaten has also been relatively modest. She hasn’t beaten a single top-class male that has run to its best, and most other great females have.
June 19th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Oops…I meant to type “as more and more top quality horses being sent east” - I don’t believe the quality of racing is as strong there as it use to be…meaning easier competition for top horses.
June 19th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Jeremy,
I love that you qualify her beating top-class males by saying ‘they weren’t at their best.’ I find it hard to believe that every single one of the horses that raced in the classic weren’t trained all year without that race in mind.
If you’re angry about Zenyatta staying in California, take it out on her owners, not on the horse herself.
June 19th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Zenyatta’s obviously one of the greatest mares of all time; anyone who would question that needs their head examined.
BUT: She needs to show that she can win a G1 on the dirt in NY or KY (and not scratch because of inclement weather) to really show me that she’s a superstar. I believe she’s capable, so come on Moss, step up!
June 19th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Heather –
I’m not angry about anything. Zenyatta’s connections have managed her very carefully, and that’s their prerogative.
With regards to your point that the horses in the BC were trained “with that race in mind”, you are both wrong, and misguided. Exceedingly few horses in America are trained with one race in mind, with the exception of the Derby in some cases. The best European to run in the race, Rip Van Winkle, was most certainly NOT trained with that race in mind, and neither was Gio Ponti.
Furthermore – and more to the point – it doesn’t matter whether or not they were trained for the race or not if they fail to show their best. So even if the aforementioned RVW had been pointed for the race, it isn’t a feather in Zenyatta’s cap to have beaten him when he ran far, far below his true form.
You might as well give her credit for beating Quality Road, just because he was listed in the program.
June 19th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Amazing, Didn’t anyone get the point Mr. Paulick was trying to make?, I thought it was pretty obvious and put this argument into its proper PERSPECTIVE, But, I guess others just don’t get it, Sad…
June 19th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Well said, Mr. P!
June 19th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Jeremy Jett,
It is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
June 19th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Ray Paulick wrote: ” We detailed that argument here the following morning but had no idea how bitter and divisive readers could get over the way Zenyatta has been handled during her career or whether she deserved the 2009 Horse of the Year title won by the rival she has never met on the racetrack, Rachel Alexandra. Frankly, many of the comments were vicious, mean-spirited and appalling.”
Mr. Paulick - be real.
You slapped on the absurd headline “Steve Byk disses Zenyatta” and framed your writing in a way to appear that Byk is some Easterner with a bias against both Zenyatta and West Coast horse racing.
It was a brazen attempt to throw red meat to Zenyatta’s rabid fan base … more than it was portraying fairly a heated discussion between a veteran handicapper and a radio host.
One needed only to see that title and read how that was framed to know the replys that followed were a 3-to-5 favorite to go the way they eventually did.
Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra are both great horses.
Zenyatta has a lifetime win/loss record that in modern racing history is only bested by a horse who never left New Mexico…and even with all the justifiable knocks on the 2009 Breeders Cup Classic … she is still the first female to ever win the Breeders Cup Classic - and I believe possibly only the 3rd to even attempt racing in it. Jolypha was 3rd to AP indy in the ‘92 BC Classic and Azeri was 5th to the great Ghostzapper.
Rachel Alexandra had a 3-year-old filly season that is unmatched in modern racing history … even with the justifiable knocks on the quality of competition she beat … she still won the Kentucky Oaks by 20+ lenghs and the Mother Goose by 19+ lengths … pulled off a Preakness and Haskell sweep against memebers of the superior sex … and won a Grade 1 against older males in just early Sept.
Of course any racing fan should appreciate that they had a chance to watch both great horses.
However - when a discussion about how they rate against other great horses happens - to not make factual attacks against the quality of opposition that both RA and Zenyatta faced, to not make justifiable attacks against how they’ve been campaigned, to not make a factual attack about the way California racing has been in a downward spiral since the late 90’s … that is to do a total disservice against the great horses from the past who faced superior competition, who were campaigned tough, and who thrived in a deep talent rich regional divison.
For me - Zenyatta’s victory over Hystericalady was actually the key turning point in helping me win a contest that was worth a few thousand dollars. I have bet against Zenyatta on 3 different occasions during her racing career - but all in all - she owes me nothing.
However, to read opinions like Buddy wrote in comment #1 …. how can that not make any self respecting fan of great race horses bitter?
June 19th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
A difference of opinion is one thing, but the nastiness directed towards Zenyatta (and Rachel Alexandra) is unwarranted. Enjoy them while we have them racing!
What a shame Zenyatta’s current racing has not been on major television outlets. We whine about not having racing heroes–but when one emerges, the public in general has little awareness of her.
June 19th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
No… Doug Salvatore,
You’d be wrong once again. Before you speak, you should make sure your knowledgeable about a subject.
There have been four females who have tried the Breeders Cup Classic.
Triptych -1986
Jolypha -1992
Azeri - 2004
Zenyatta -2009
In the 55 year history of the Woodward, 2 females have tried the Woodward. This means a female has tried the Woodward every 27.5 years. On the other hand, in the 26 year history of the Breeders Cup Classic, a female has tried to win it every 6.5 years.
This displays your ignorance between the accomplishments of Zenyatta vs. Rachel Alexandra. I can give you statistic after statistic of a Zenyatta vs. Rachel Alexandra matchup.
Rachel Alexandra is not even in the same area code as Zenyatta. Zenyatta’s resume crushes Rachel Alexandra in the statistics department.
The 2009 “Hoax of the Year” is just that.
Zenyatta makes Rachel Alexandra look like inferior horse flesh. When you have an owner pulling his filly (Rachel Alexandra) out of the Apple Blossom, this is all I would need to know if i was a hardcore Rachel Alexandra fan. Jess Jackson feared Zenyatta and I don’t blame him.
June 19th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Jeremy Jet
I think you have a problem with the concept of fact and opinion. Most people know the facts about Zenyatta by now, she has won 17 races, beaten so many Grade One winners, run on different surfaces, times, winning lengths etc. You have taken these facts and come to the opinion that she is a good horses but not great, which is fine, other people can look at the same facts and develop a different opinion. It is not obvious to me that she is not as good or better than other fillies and mares from the last 25 years, and anyway it is just your opinion and certainly not a fact that she is not one of the greatest horses to race.
June 19th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Mike –
You apparently don’t read very carefully. I’ve stated several times that I have no problem with her being considered “great”. I have also pointed out specifically that the horses that fillies such as Miesque, Zarkava, and Goldikova have beaten during their careers are clearly superior to the ones that Zenyatta has beaten (and often narrowly).
These are facts, but facts which can only be understood if you follow racing seriously, and appreciate the distinctions between the likes of Paco Boy (the best male miler in Europe, just beaten by Goldikova), and the likes of Life is Sweet and St. Trinians. There is no comparison between the two, whether you care to emphasize speed figures or class handicapping; they are literally and figuratively worlds apart.
I can (and have) provided other examples, but again, anyone who understands international form wouldn’t need such distinctions to be parsed out in any specific way.
You seem to be falling into the same trap as many other Z defenders. Winning 17 races in a row at a high level is undeniably impressive. So is beating many Grade I winners. But that is still a superficial analysis when comparing truly exceptional racehorses, as all of them will have won plenty of Grade I races. The fact remains that not a single one of the Grade I winners that have finished behind Zenyatta is of the caliber of the horses that the above-mentioned fillies have beaten.
June 19th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Jeremy Jett,
…and of course, Zenyatta’s next victory will set the all-time world record of 8 consecutive Grade I victories (surpassing “Rock of Gibraltar’s” world record of 7 consecutive Grade I’s).
…and of course with her next victory, she’ll go past the legendary Ouiji Board (for the female earnings record - for foreign female horses that have raced in North America).
…and of course with her next victory she will tie the legendary “Eclipse” (Ch.c Born: 1764) for 18 consecutive victories without defeat.
It goes on and on…doesn’t it, Jeremy? The records are falling and you “cannot” do one thing about it. Don’t you just love that?
I love when the east has to sit “on their hands” and watch this. Ain’t it great?
June 19th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Niatross-1980,
A classic post!
:+)
June 19th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Jeremy Jett,
Isn’t it great Zenyatta will set the all time record for consecutive Grade 1 wins, an achievement unattainable by any horse running in the United States prior to 1973?
And isn’t it great that Zenyatta will become the world’s leading money-winning female since, you know, Curlin is the greatest North American male runner of all time because he earned more money than any of them?
June 19th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Zenyatta is a great mare that has been managed perfectly. She can’t help it that the competition has been a little suspect. But she makes them all look suspect. She is fun to watch and great for the sport. I love watching her run. She knows where the wire is.
June 19th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Niatross-1980:
You hit the nail right on the head. The east coast (and Europe) has to sit and watch Zenyatta break their records (which they are so proud of, by the way).
Gotta love it!
June 19th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
It’s as if Zenyatta’s detractors (virtually all of them are Easterners) forget or have amnesia about the fact that she won the Breeders’ Cup Classic against the best field of males assembled last year, including the Champion 3-year old male, the Champion older male, the best European male then in training, and the Kentucky Derby winner. Any doubts about her ability should have been put to rest after she inhaled that field in the final stretch.
As for the quality of females she has beat, they include the last past two Breeders’ Cup Distaff winners, Ginger Punch and Life is Sweet. And St. Trinians is an excellent horse, far superior to any horse Rachel Alexandra has faced this year. And, of course, Zenyatta showed up at Oaklawn in April for the Apple Blossom, Rachel’s backyard. $5 million was on the line if Rachel showed up. Her absence speaks volumes.
As for the “artificial turf” red herring: you cannot blame Zenyatta’s connection that the Breeders’ Cup decided to hold their even the past two years at Santa Anita. She has run two times on dirt, and looked impressive each time, with plenty of energy left in reserve. John Shirreffs has said that she likes dirt better. And the synth-to-dirt transition has held up this Spring, with many Cal shippers winning big races, e.g., Lookin at Lucky (Rebel, Preakness), Blind Luck (Kentucky Oaks), American Lion (Illinois Derby), Line of David (Arkansas Derby), Game on Dude (Lone Star Derby), and Zardana (dispatching Rachel Alexandra at the Fair Grounds).
The next red herring the Zenyatta detractors is her Beyer Speed Figures. First off, I understand that her 112 BSF in the BC Classic was the highest ever recorded on a synthetic surface in a two-turn route race. And she recorded this number in a race with a slow pace. Second, Beyer Speed Figures do not take into account factors such as slow pace (which compromises closers), loss of ground (e.g., her coming 8 wide out of the final turn last Sunday in the Vanity), and weight. The fact is that throw slow pace at her in virtually all of her race, but she seems almost impervious to it.
Lenny Shulman was on the Roger Stein radio show this morning. Shulman said that all of the negativity directed at Zenyatta comes from New Yorkers who cannot fathom that a great horse can come out of California. (Reminds me of what Easterners said about Seabiscuit and Sunday Silence). There is something to this. If Zenyatta was stabled at Belmont, and ran mostly in New York, and even won a Breeders’ Cup Distaff and Classic at Belmont, the Steve Byk’s of the world would be waxing poetic about Zenyatta being the greatest female ever, right after Ruffian (who, of course, never ran outside of New York).
I would like to see Zenyatta run at Belmont. (I do not think she likes the surface at Del Mar.) She is even more effective on dirt, wouldn’t have to lug the big weight, and would benefit from the long final stretch. But I trust John Shirreffs; you cannot argue with his handling of her. And a detention barn is out of the question; that requirement would have to be waived.
Anyway, reasonable people can differ. But nasty comments by the Steve Byk’s of the world (e.g., she is no better than Best Pal or Lava Man) evidence an utter lack of credibility.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
I’m close to suffocating from the superficiality of these arguments. Those of you who believe that records set by racehorses is the way to judge their quality and ability relative to other top-class runners really don’t have a clue.
That’s not to say that Z’s accomplishments aren’t impressive – they are. Very. But the way to distinguish between outstanding horses is, and always has been to interpret their races. What was the quality of the horses they beat? How did they beat them? It’s within that classic context that Zenyatta is clearly exposed as being a cut below the very best females in terms of ability.
As Patrick noted above, though I’m not sure whether or not he meant it ironically, Curlin is the all-time leading money winner amongst males. Does anyone seriously believe that he is therefore anywhere close to being the best modern American male racehorse?
June 19th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Niatross-1980 -
You put “Jeremy Jet” right in his place. Great post.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
Jeremy Jet
We don’t care if you suffocate. What would a gardener know about thoroughbred horse racing, anyway?
Take your leaf blower and gardening equipment and head back home (to Europe).
June 19th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
I’m not getting into where these mares fit from a historical perspective. From a fan’s perspective, though, how can you not love watching Z run wherever that may be, and how can you not love the excitement of her just pulling out that 17th win? Same with RA. You have to love what these mares have done for the sport, the interest they’ve generated, and the thrill they have given to those of us lucky enough to have been at the track to see each of them run,
June 19th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Jim C (36) –
You sound like a serious fan, and some of your analyses are reasonable. So how can you possibly start with this tired, ridiculous assertion:
“Any doubts about her ability should have been put to rest after she inhaled that field in the final stretch.”
The second and third place finishers were very likely not at their best on a new surface, and Summer Bird obviously failed to show his best. The others were non factors, so having beaten them was meaningless.
It is true that Beyer figures do not take pace into account, and that Zenyatta is, at times, disadvantaged by a slow pace. But the reason that she is disadvantaged is precisely because she her running style is an intrinsic limitation. And that, in turn, helps to explain why she sometimes beats very modest horses by narrow margins.
Speaking of red herrings, though, the East Coast bias issue is totally irrelevant to the argument. Either people can make their cases substantially or they can’t.
I will add one more point that you brought up. It is possible that Zenyatta could be better on dirt. I haven’t ruled that out, but she has yet to prove it. I’d be happy to see her produce her best performance ever at Belmont or Churchill, and if she were to do that, I’d be happy to re-evaluate her standing amongst the all-time great females.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
A broadcaster on the Vanity televast said it best when he stated, basically, that Zenyatta runs down whatever you put in front of her.
As for how she’s been managed, consider this: Her competitors have come and gone, but Zenyatta’s still undefeated and she’s still winning grade 1’s.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Jeremy Jet,
Your rationalizations (in regards to horseflesh) is quite bizarre, to say the least.
In your last comments to “Jim C”, we can evaluate and conclude that the ignorance you display in this great sport of ours is quite mind boggling.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Pierre –
You, and quite a few other “contributors” should look up the definition of “ad hominem attacks”. It is a common approach of those who can’t, or don’t want to challenge the substance of someone else’s argument.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Jeremy Jet:
I think you need to learn how to spell (before opening mouth and inserting foot).
What is “analyses”?
Did you mean the word: “analysis”?
June 19th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Dirty –
Congratulations! You have succinctly displayed both your class, and level of education.
Analyses is the plural form.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Europeans use the word “analyses” when talking in plural. Jeremy Jet thinks he is still in Europe.
Jeremy, the correct use of “analyses” (when talking in plural) in the United States is “analysis”.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Keeping fighting the good fight Jeremy Jet …. I can’t take it any more.
I exchanged some text messages with a bad bettor/big Zenyatta fan friend of mine on Monday … I told him I don’t like that you now have these nuts calling Zenyatta the greatest mare ever and even the best horse ever.
His reply he texted back was “You don’t have to like it. You just have to suck on it”
But hey … some good has finally come of this for me … I get to read a troll like Big Whisky do his home run trot over a stat that was pretty irrelevant and add to it with more irrelevant stats.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Niatross-1980,
Excellent post. I didn’t know Zenyatta was about to break/tie these records. Thanks for sharing.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Jeremy, you say about the 2009 BC Classic: “The second and third place finishers were very likely not at their best on a new surface, and Summer Bird obviously failed to show his best. The others were non factors, so having beaten them was meaningless.”
First off, Zenyatta SHOWED UP. Rachel was not there, and no female horse had ever won that event previously. It’s the biggest event in racing, comprised of the best field of horses assembled for that year. She won. Period. Facts are facts.
Second, you are simply mistaken that the presence of turf horses diminished the race. Several European turf horses have won Breeders’ Cup events on the synthetic surface at Santa Anita. You forget that, in 2008, Raven’s Pass, a European turf horse, won the Classic.
Third, it was not ridiculous for me to say that she “inhaled the field” in the BC Classic. She in fact did just that, in the final stretch. She was not even close to hitting her top gear. It looked like a gallop. Steve Davidowitz noted that, coming out of the final turn, she was moving forward on a sideways parh, angling out to find an opening, while Gio Ponti, Summer Bird, and Twice Over already had a clear, straight path to the finish, and were moving forward rapidly, perfectly set-up. Not only did she overcome this severe positional disadvantage, she inhaled the entire field once she found her opening, and had plenty of energy left in reserve.
As for your comment: “It is true that Beyer figures do not take pace into account, and that Zenyatta is, at times, disadvantaged by a slow pace. But the reason that she is disadvantaged is precisely because she her running style is an intrinsic limitation. And that, in turn, helps to explain why she sometimes beats very modest horses by narrow margins.” That’s pretty easy to refute.
First off, I do not know how many races over synthetic surfaces you have watched, but over such a surface (and indeed, over turf ) the fields tend to run more “compressed,” i.e., at the finish line, the horses near the front tend to be closer to horses near the back, than compared to a race run over dirt. This is part of the reason that Zenyatta tends not to win her races by several lengths. (On her two races over dirt, however, she has finished further in front of the field, including dusting off GInger Punch, the reigning BC Distaff Champion). The other factor is that with the slow paces they always throw at her, there is never a “speed meltdown” which sets her up for an easy finish. The fact that she has been impervious to slow pace shows what a great horse she is.
As for your comment, “And that, in turn, helps to explain why she sometimes beats very modest horses by narrow margins.” Again, more nonsense. In the BC Classic, like I said, she beat the top European male then in training (Rip van Winkle), the Champion American male older horse (Gio Ponti), the Champion American 3-year old male (Summer Bird), the reigning winner of the Big Cap (Einnstein), the winner of the 2009 Pacific Classic (Richard’sKid), a winner of the Santa Anita Derby and Travers (Colonel John), and the Kentucky Derby Winner (Mine that Bird). She has also beaten two Breeders’ Cup Distaff Champions (GInger Punch and Life is Sweet), and St. Trinians, one of the top older female horses currently in training. WHO ON EARTH HAS RACHEL ALEXANDRA BEATEN OF COMPARABLE QUALITY? Macho Again? Until you answer that question, you are just bloviating, not engaging in rational discourse. Also, you do not address Rachel’s no-show at Oaklawn in April for the Apple Blossom. $5 million was on the table. WHERE WAS RACHEL?
Look, reasonable people can disagree over Zenyatta’s merits. If you have more of an emotional connection to Rachel, or to others, than you are entitled to your opinion. It was great to see Rachel win last weekend, and I hope she returns to her previous form. But I have yet to see a sound, rational argument advanced against Zenyatta’s greatness, just red herrings and outright bile (e.g., Steve Byk, who put her on par with Best Pal and Lava Man).
June 19th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Big Whisky……
Loved your post. Totally agree.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Z-E-N-Y-A-T-T-A
An equine phenom!
The Reflection of Perfection!
June 19th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Jim –
In the numerous posts I’ve made on the topic, I haven’t mentioned Rachel once. So why do you keep bringing her up? Second, talking about the “best field assembled” is patently ridiculous if many of the runners either didn’t run, or failed to show their best.
Twice Over has never won a Grade I race, and is well down the pecking order amongst top European runners. Gio Ponti was obviously overrated last year, and in his only other try on a synthetic track, he finished behind three horses (in the DWC) which had won a combined ONE Grade I race between them. So even if you make the questionable argument that those two turf horses ran to their best, they don’t compare to the types I have mentioned.
You misunderstood me in one respect: Zenyatta was visually impressive in the BC.
When you say: “The fact that she has been impervious to slow pace shows what a great horse she is.”, you are partly correct, yet exaggerating at the same time. It is to her great credit that she has been able to overcome her running style, much like Turkoman did in the ’80s. But that does not speak to whether or not she would be able to overcome that limitation if she faced better rivals.
Finally, for the umpteenth time, I have no problem with people characterizing her as great. But all “great” horses are not equal, and she happens not to be as good as the other females that I’ve listed. Perhaps she will prove that she is in a dirt race later in the season. But as of now, she’s not for the very clear reasons that I’ve repeatedly outlined.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Dear Jeremy:
You apparently have lots of time on your hands, yes?
So why don’t you take a few moments and explain just exactly Zenyatta would need to do before you and your ilk would be impressed?
To me, it’s that Zenyatta renders handicapping irrelevant. Pace doesn’t matter! Sex doesn’t matter! Distance doesn’t matter! Surface (that’s right, surface) doesn’t matter! Nothing matters!
But an obvious expert like yourself must have formulated a checklist of races and opponents that Zenyatta must complete before earning that elusive Jet seal of approval.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Rightu –
If her conservative connections were to race her against top male dirt horses in a big race, and she were to beat them impressively, then she will have proven more (how much would depend on the details). If they were to ship her thousands of miles to Europe and win a big race against male horses, the equivalent of what Miesque and Goldikova have done twice each, then I would be very comfortable considering her as good as those two.
This has nothing to do with my subjective opinion – it’s about judging horses on the basis on which they should always be ultimately judged: who did they beat, and how did they beat them?
June 19th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Jeremy Jet-
There’a a “reason” why you don’t want to bring up Rachel Alexandra.
“You want to forget about her”
“You especially want to forget about her 2010 campaign”.
The east is trying their best to find an inferior four-legged thoroughbred that can “attempt” to handle a specimen like Zenyatta. They know Rachel Alexandra can’t do it, so they are going “all-in” on an inferior colt, like Quality Road.
Next loss for Quality Road:
The 2010 Breeders Cup Classic when his futile attempt to beat Zenyatta comes up short and the sixteenth pole.
Good luck to you, Jeremy…because your going to need it come November 6, 2010.
June 19th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Jeremy Jet-
There is a “reason” why you don’t want to bring up Rachel Alexandra.
“You want to forget about her”
“You especially want to forget about her 2010 campaign”.
The east is trying their best to find an inferior four-legged thoroughbred that can “attempt” to handle a specimen like Zenyatta. They know Rachel Alexandra can’t do it, so they are going “all-in” on an inferior colt, like Quality Road.
Next loss for Quality Road:
The 2010 Breeders Cup Classic when his futile attempt to beat Zenyatta comes up short and the sixteenth pole.
Good luck to you, Jeremy…because your going to need it come November 6, 2010.
June 19th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Jeremy Jet:
Bring Goldikova over to the United States. Place her on a synthetic surface with Zenyatta and we shall see who makes who inferior.
You can’t judge the merits of Goldikova with Zenyatta until they have both raced one another.
Goldikova is a big “zero” to American racing fans until she runs up against Zenyatta and “proves” that she is the best.
Would you care to wager? I know where my money is going.
June 19th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Jeremy,
You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to you own facts. I never said the 2009 BC Classic was the best field “ever assembled.” I said it was the best field assembled last year. And Zenyatta won the biggest race against the best field that year, and no female horse had ever done that before.
It’s just amazing all the bile directed at her. Amazing. Steve Byk is normally a mild-mannered guy, but he turned into Regan (complete with the head-spinning) from The Exorcist when Steve Davidowitz opined that Zenyatta was the greatest race mare he has ever seen.
For what it’s worth, Ruffian was my favorite horse of all-time. Male or female. Until Zenyatta came along. I am not claiming she is the best of all-time. But she certainly is one of the most exciting. No horse has ever provoked as much emotion, or as many goose-bumps watching her.
JC
June 19th, 2010 at 6:27 pm
Your one of a kind “Niatross-1980″. I liked the post.
Jeremy Jet’s “ad hominem attacks” had no answer for your post. The points you made in your post could not be disputed by him.
June 19th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Add this topic to things people shouldn’t talk about — religion, politics, and horse racing!
June 19th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Niatross-1980…
Wow, Zenyatta is starting to come close to some “big-time” records.
I wonder if they will rename the “Eclipse” award the “Zenyatta” award?
“The Zenyatta Awards” sounds like a great name for them!
Special racemare….there is no one that can beat her.
June 19th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Let’s continue to pile on Jeremy Jet.
Jeremy, please allow me to paraphrase your position in this debate: Is Zenyatta the greatest female horse of her generation? I will not extend beyond that. You have taken the position she is not.
In all your posts, you have yet to cite a fact within her record or the record of other top horses. You have stated your OPINION that you do not believe she has beaten enough top competition when all were at their best. You are completely entitled to that OPINION.
You say the field in the most impressive victory in Zenyatta’s career was not at their best. How do you know? Have any of the participants emerged from last fall’s Classic come out and said “boy do I wish I met Zenyatta a month earlier…or on turf…or in Europe…or in New York… or getting more weight” ? If so, please cite the quote.
You have said most observers of international form judge the relative merits of great horses based on the competition they faced. Could you please provide a supporting quote or at least the name of someone else willing to stand with you in this position?
In your most recent post you said Twice Over had never won a Grade 1 race. Incorrect. He won the Champion Stakes at Newmarket prior to the Classic. I understand Sea the Stars was not in that race and that many of Europe’s best race in the Arc instead of the Champion, but 50 years from now - when the Jeremy Jets of the world are gone and unable to inform us on the relative merits of horses of a certain era - both Twice Over and Sea the Stars will appear on catalog pages, pedigrees and history books as Group 1 winners. As I said in an earlier post, the Pattern Committee and the Graded Stakes Committee provide us with the metrics. If you are on either committee I apologize, but you give me no reason to believe your ratings are more informed than those august bodies.
One more quibble…conceding that you are not defending Rachel Alexandra’s record…but when you use hindsight to say “Gio Ponti was clearly overrated in 2009,” does that not force us to call into question the ratings of our other champions from that year who have subsequently lost including the Horse of the Year?
Now at the risk of repeating “superficial” analysis by others, here are some metrics (FACTS) in support of Zenyatta as the best female horse of recent generations:
She has never lost.
She has never needed an excuse that she wasn’t at her best that day.
She has earned more money.
She has won established Grade 1 races on both dirt and synthetic surfaces.
She has won at distances ranging from 6 1/2 furlongs to 1 1/4 miles.
Did I mention she has never lost.
She has carried heavy weights (and never lost).
She has faced males in a Grade 1 race and won.
I welcome a side-by-side comparison of Goldikova, Miesque or Zarkava along side those metrics. The first two lost nine times between them. The latter raced fewer times than Zenyatta.
And could you possibly concede - since you have only proffered European horses - that Zenyatta is the best AMERICAN female of recent generations? That may be a perfect point of compromise and change the opinion of many who have posted and concluded what they have about you.
June 19th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
“…but 50 years from now - when the Jeremy Jets of the world are gone and unable to inform us on the relative merits of horses of a certain era - both Twice Over and Sea the Stars will appear on catalog pages, pedigrees and history books as Group 1 winners”
This is a bit of an understatement Rolly. Sea the Stars will be remembered for winning the 2000 Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, International, Irish Champion and Arc in the same year (a six-time “Group 1″ winner), and not just as a Champion winner. Being labeled a “Group 1″ winner means very little by critical thinkers since that status has been and continues to be earned by relatively marginal talents all the time You see it every year as well as I do.
And its these “august” bodies who tell us and our posterity that races like the Prioress, King’s Bishop and Garden City are as important, or in some cases more important, than the Champagne, Spinster and Suburban. Or that the Falmouth, Lockinge and Prince of Wales’s is right on par with the Eclipse, Derby, Oaks, etc.
It’s funny how the sport survived quite a long time in the U.S. without the “metrics” provided by a committee unelected and unaccountable to the people it affects the most, and whose decisions are largely self-fulfilling.
June 19th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Setting a record for consecutive wins is impressive, even more so considering Zenyatta is a deep closer; it’s also impressive considering her consecutive G1 wins. And I’m not even going to introduce into the argument the fact that synthetics favor closer far more than dirt. But to downgrade what Rachel has done to try to elevate what Zenyatta has done is hilarious and an exercise in futility. Big whoop that Zenyatta has won 7 G1s in a row where the current streak of four in a row is at 1 1/8 or longer, Rachel won 5 G1s in a row all at 1 1/8 or longer setting 3 records not to mention running one race on 15 days rest and winning from a post position that has never been done before in 137 years. And three of Rachel’s 5 G1s in a row were against males while only one of Zenyatta’s was against males. Zenyatta will never top that, and she’ll never face males in back to back races like Rachel did. Zenyatta doesn’t come close to anhilating Rachel in stats like many of you think. But hey, go ahead and elevate Zenyatta as the greatest ever….history will be kind to her for sure, but she certainly has a long way to go to hold a candle to the greatest mares.
June 19th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Patrick…no argument on the fact that the Graded stakes system is flawed…but it is the coin of the realm. They have more currency certainly than Jeremy Jet’s opinion. And if the Graded stakes system is judged based on why it was created - namely to help bloodstock buyers compare records in sale catalogs - they are very effective.
And my point about Twice Over vis-a-vis Sea the Stars was not to equate them. Just to point out the fact that on the black-and-white page, both have won Group 1 races (something which JJ had incorrect in a previous post). Indeed Mine That Bird and Secretariat also have something very much in common: they both won the Kentucky Derby. I’m not foolish enough to equate them. It’s like the line about what they call the person who graduates last in his/her medical school class. We call him/her a Doctor.
And no matter how you judge the relative abilities of Zenyatta’s competition - she’s beaten all of them and never had to make an excuse for herself against any of them. That can not be said of any other female racer over the course of this many starts in high-caliber events EVER.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Rolly Hoyt –
It is true that Twice Over had won that single Group I race; that was my mistake. It is also true that he is well exposed, and is not considered by any acknowledged experts to be among the very top tier in Europe.
I have repeatedly pointed out that even if Twice Over and Gio Ponti were at their best, they are demonstrably inferior to the colts that Zarkava and Goldikova have beaten. And those fillies beat their rivals under conditions that suited all equally. Zenyatta won the Breeders’ Cup on a surface that TO and GP may or may not have been at their best on. Moreover, Twice Over had to travel thousands of miles, while Zenyatta walked over to the paddock.
My analysis has never rested on the notion that those two horses failed to run to their best, but it is painfully obvious that the likes of Summer Bird and Rip Van Winkle both ran well below form. So TO and GP are the only salient runners to mention in any serious analysis.
“You have said most observers of international form judge the relative merits of great horses based on the competition they faced. Could you please provide a supporting quote or at least the name of someone else willing to stand with you in this position?”
How on earth do you think that any expert judges the relative form of horses? Speed figures? Number of records set? It should be self-evident that the most accurate way to judge the relative merit of any horses is to analyze their form, and draw conclusions from the quality of their competition, and how decisively they beat their rivals, whether they faced disadvantages, whether their rivals ran to their best, etc.
There are, of course, other variables to consider, and I have already acknowledged that Zenyatta’s accomplishments are truly extraordinary. The problem with your list, which is similar to those that others have used, is that they add up only to what everyone – including me – agrees on: she is a rare, exceptional racehorse. In the more nuanced context of comparing her to the best modern fillies and mares, money earned means nothing. As I’ve mentioned already, Curlin is the all-time leading money earner. Need I say more?
Her undefeated record is extraordinary, but the quality of her competition has been very weak overall. She does deserve great credit for that accomplishment, but to dovetail your later suggestion into this point, Personal Ensign beat Winning Colors, and I would consider that filly to be superior to any horse Zenyatta has faced. With regards to Goldikova, it makes no difference that she was beaten. She has faced competition which has consistently been far higher than Zenyatta, and her losses do not mitigate against her accomplishments in any serious way.
You point out that Zenyatta has shown versatility, and has carried weight (by US standards). Those are feathers in her cap.
As for side-by-side comparisons, feel free to look up the form on those fillies on the Racing Post or attheraces sites. I will, however, give you a brief review of the top-class horses that those fillies beat during their careers. Each one of these horses was (or is) undoubtedly superior to Gio Ponti, Twice Over, or Ginger Punch at their very best.
Miesque comprehensively beat: Warning and Soviet Star
Zarkava beat Goldikova (at a mile), Dar Re Mi (twice), and several high-class colts in the Arc (a race in which neither Twice Over nor Gio Ponti would be competitive). She beat a brilliant miler at her own game, and won the worlds best 12f. race over colts in breathtaking style, a display of versatility which makes Zenyatta’s pale in comparison.
Beyond displaying her superiority in two consecutive Breeders’ Cup races (and having to ship thousands of miles, etc.), Goldikova has beaten Byword and Paco Boy, to name just two top-class colts.
To summarize, Zenyatta has yet to face, let alone beat a horse of the caliber of the above horses. I do hope that she is given a chance to face a serious challenge before she is retired, and if she is able to beat a really top-class colt, she may then deserve to be ranked right up with the very best.
As to your last question, I’d say that it is hard to split her from Personal Ensign. As I said above, Winning Colors was in my view a better horse than any Zenyatta has beaten. I also don’t believe that Z could have beaten WC at a mile, but that’s a tangent. I don’t have a strong opinion as to which of the two was the better horse, and in any case, I certainly do believe that Zenyatta is one of the all-time great American females, in the broad sense.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
The crux of Rolly Hoyt’s argument for the case of Zenyatta’s greatness is by far the strongest thus far posted. I have no doubt he will ultimately be correct.
In case you missed it:
Zenyatta will go down in history as an all-time great because in 50 years there will be no informed people or critical analyses to tell us otherwise.
You may now return to slurping gruel and chugging your Brawndo while watching TV on your lounge chair/toilet.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Quote from Jeremy Jet:
“It is true that Twice Over had won that single Group I race; that was my mistake.”
——————————————————————
Jeremy,
You shouldn’t be making mistakes. Go back to that hole you crawled out of… and disappear.
Your a farce.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Secretariat –
That was a devastating, high-class rebuttal. I think that I speak for everyone reading this forum when I say that I look forward to more of your penetrating insights.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Thankfully they write allowance conditions the way they do in Southern California.
St. Trinians started 7 times in Europe and never once earned as much as $6,000 in a race there. That’s why she was a very attractive horse to bring to Southern Cal.
It would have been a shame if she was still in Europe.
Now that she has had her first race under her belt off of that 100 day layoff .. hopefully she can move forward and hopefully all of her shoes stay on if there is a re-match.
Life Is Sweet was 0-for-4 lifetime in Eastern stakes when Bill Mott had her. Boy - she got REAL good all of a sudden when she moved West.
Made for Magic made the first 19 starts of her career in Northern California, Washington State, and once at Hastings Park. She was claimed for $16,000 out of race at Golden Gate where she was beaten 6.25 lengths … 5 days later she won a race at Del Mar at 20/1. Less than 2 months later she’s running against Zenyatta in a Grade 1. She wins May’s Grade 2 Milady at Hollywood … only to wisely duck Zenyatta and show up at Churchill so she could get beat 20+ lengths to Rachel Alexandra.
Anabaa’s Creation loses 10 straight races in Europe .. in the last of which she was beaten 15 lengths at Compiegne Racetrack in France in a listed race. She comes to Southern California and comes within a nose bob of beating Zenyatta in a Grade 1 stakes race at Del Mar.
Dance To My Tune finishes 4th or worse in 6 straight races - 4 of which at Woodbine racetrack - before she runs 2nd to Zenyatta in a Grade 1 at 50/1 odds.
Pretty Unusual get beat in an N1X allowance race .. and just two weeks later she upsets the Grade 2 El Encino earlier this year.
Yeah … that local division of older female synthetic routers is just nails out there. What if Nashoba’s Key didn’t tragically die in a stall accident? She was 4-for-4 in synthetic races - with 2 easy Grade 2 score and 2 easy Grade 1 scores. She won a Grade 1 by 4.5 lengths in her lifetime race … this was her division that Zenyatta inherited.
Oh - I know - Zenyatta shipped to Oaklawn twice and beat 2nd place finishers Brownie Points and Taptam in the Apple Blossom. Taptam got smoked twice at Delaware Park after running 2nd in this years Apple Blossom. Be Fair - who was 3rd in this years Apple Blossom - only got beat 22 lengths by Unrivalled Belle in her next race.
Spectacular Bid was 24-for-24 between the distances of 7 furlong to 10 furlongs - with 14 Grade 1 stakes win and several track records to his credit. He held the fastest Ragozin figure ever run for over 20 years until it was broken. But hey, there’s no way he would have got up late against Anabaa’s Creation, Dance to My Tune, Taptam, Cocoa Beach, and St. Trinians … let alone the indomitable Gio Ponti.
Zenyatta. Greatest. Horse. To. Ever. Live.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
Who does that Bob Baffert guy (#34 above) think he is cluttering up this blog with amateurish, uninformed opinions about Zenyatta when we can get the FACTS from a genuine expert like Jeremy Jet? The real travesty is that Bob Baffert is in the Hall of Fame while Jeremy Jet is not. Somebody needs to right this wrong. I mean lets face it, Baffert has faced inferior competition during his entire career…
June 19th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
It never ceases to amaze me.
Doug Salvatore displays his ignorance once again.
This character has no “clue” of the term: “Pace Makes The Race”?
Why doesn’t he understand the term “Pace Makes The Race”?
Because he enjoys european racing (which has no pace).
I think I gave “Doug Salvatore” a little too much credit in regards to Zenyatta and the pace scenarios she has faced in her career.
It has become obvious to me (and others) that Doug Salvatore’s ignorance has rose to the top when it comes to the 2009 Clement L. Hirsch.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Well let’s see here…
Zenyatta defeats Tough Tiz’s Sis in the Grade I Vanity, then Baffert ships Tough Tiz’s Sis to Belmont to race her in the Grade I Ruffian.
Result:
Tough Tiz’s Sis draws off by 19 lengths and absolutely dismantles the field in the Grade I Ruffian and sets the stakes record, while stopping the teletimer in 1:40.16
Note:
Baffert was tired of having his brains bashed in by Zenyatta, so he shipped east to race those tomato cans at Belmont Park.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Doug Salvatore,
Good grief. You know how to cherry-pick data, and then avoid the previous issues I have raised.
I was responding to the comment that Zenyatta has never taken on any decent females. Like I said, she has defeated two Breeders’ Cup Distaff Champions (Ginger Punch and Life is Sweet) and an excellent horse in St. Trinians, who was the betting favorite for the Big Cap against males. Rachel Alexandra, in garnering her purported “[East] Horse of the Year” honors, just simply has not beaten any females (or males) of comparable quality. Period.
And then you say, “Oh - I know - Zenyatta shipped to Oaklawn twice and beat 2nd place finishers Brownie Points and Taptam in the Apple Blossom. Taptam got smoked twice at Delaware Park after running 2nd in this years Apple Blossom. Be Fair - who was 3rd in this years Apple Blossom - only got beat 22 lengths by Unrivalled Belle in her next race.”
Hey, Doug, how convenient you so quickly forget the context of the 2010 Apple Blossom. in case you were not aware, in case you hadn’t heard, $5 million was on the table for Rachel if she showed up. $5 millions. WHERE WAS RACHEL, MY FRIEND? Not the fault of Zenyatta’s connections that Rachel did not show up.
And where is your list of al the great horses Rachel has dispatched. Macho Again? Musket Man? The fact is that Zenyatta has won two Breeders’ Cups, including against the best field of males assembled last year. Rachel was a no-show then, and a no-show in April at Oaklawn.
Nobody has compared Zenyatta to The Bid. It’s a red herring, and too early in any event. Just amazing how much bile an vitriol you East Coasters have for such a fine horse.
Rachel. Ducks. $5 Million. At. Oaklawn. Horse. of. the. Year. Unbelievable.
JC
June 19th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
By the way - Rolly Hoyt - I would argue that ‘95 champion Inside Information was a better horse than Zenyatta.
You want to see what a truly all-time great performance in the 17th start of your career looks like ….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8terPrcQeBw
: Quality of competition: Serena’s Song (Hall of Famer, 10 time Grade 1 stakes winner, won that years Haskell against males)
Heavenly Prize (1994 champion 3yo filly, came into that race with 4 wins and a second in her last five starts - all at the Grade 1 level)
Lakeway (4 time Grade 1 winner .. ran a 117 Beyer when she crushed Sardula in the Hollywood Oaks)
Mariah’s Storm (dam of Giant’s Causeway - the movie Dreamer was supposedly based very loosely on her story because she broke her leg in Alcibiades at age 2. She was 10-for-16 lifetime and once beat Serena’s Song and ran a 120 Beyer figure)
Margin of Victory: 13.5 lengths against one of the all-time deepest fields in BC history. Inside Information won 3 different Grade 1 races by 11 lengths or more. Name one other horse who has done that? Hell, she also won a Grade 1 at Belmont by 5.5 lengths over Sky Beauty .. snapping Sky Beauty’s flawless 12-for-12 record at Belmont Park.
Speed figure: She ran a faster figure in her BC Distaff win - than Cigar did a few hours later in his BC Classic win .. this was the year of Cigar’s perfect season.
But yeah … it’s probably absurd to compare Inside Info to Zenyatta. After all … Zenyatta’s 17-for-17 !! Yay!!! Inside Information was only 17-14-1-2 … Booooo!! Nevermind that Inside Info fell to her head at the start when she was 2nd in the 7f Grade 1 Ballerina … or that she came out of her Mother Goose defeat with health issues and had to be sidelined. Or that she lost her 2nd lifetime start after being bumped as a green 2-year-old on the stretch-out.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Dale, your Tough Tiz’s Sis post seems familiar.
In the spirit of all the other nitpicking going on here, I’d like to remind you that Tough Tiz’s Sis won the Ruffian by 12 lengths, not 19.
Also, it took place on a sloppy track, which sort of eliminates any preposterous notions that TTS’s performance somehow means that Zenyatta would have won the Ruffian.
She would have scratched.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Joe Bag O’ Donuts,
I remember when I had my first beer.
Once your off the Kool Aid and you make more sense, come back and we’ll converse.
BTW: Tough Tiz’s Sis accidentally set the stakes record in the Grade I Ruffian. She didn’t mean to.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Tough Tiz’s Sis started her career at Hawthorne … in fact, she made the first 3 starts of her career at Hawthorne … she finally broke her maiden in start #3 and was transfored to Bob Baffert.
Tough Tiz’s Sis came East five different times during her career … she was beaten 17 lengths in the KY Oaks. She was beaten 7.5 lengths by Lady Joanne in the Alabama. She was 3rd to Lear’s Princess in the Gazelle. Was beaten 16 lengths in the Distaff. Finally - in start #5 in the East - she romped by 12.5 lengths in the Ruffian Handicap.
You know who was 2nd and 3rd behind her in the Ruffian … Copper State and Stage Luck. Copper State didn’t win again she faced ungraded company in a 50K race at Prarie Meadows. Stage Luck never so much as recorded another published workout after that race. That race marked the end of her brief career.
Considering that Tough Tiz’s Sis came within a half length of beating Zenyatta going 9 furlongs at Hollywood - I would hope he’d finally be able to win in the East on his 5th lifetime try and at the expense of Copper State.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
DougSalvatore,
Do you always have tomato cans (especially in Grade I events) running at Belmont Park ?
One word: “pathetic”
Like Travis L said (above):
“BTW: Tough Tiz’s Sis accidentally set the stakes record in the Grade I Ruffian. She didn’t mean to.”
June 19th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Riboletta ran 1:40.35 (under 125lbs) when she won the Ruffian … how does Tough Tiz’s Sis hold the Stakes record again?
By the way …. I’m not from New York.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Joe Bag O’ Donuts,
You sound a little frustrated.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
St. Trinians, Life is Sweet, GInger Punch, and Music Note — all horses that Zenyatta has defeated— were better than Tough Tiz’s Sis, I agree with that, DougSalvatore. We’re all waiting for your list of great fillies and mares Rachel has defeated.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Travis - Does Joe Bag O’ Donuts hold the Boston Marathon record?
June 19th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
Jim C - you’re confusing facts. Zenyatta never beat Life Is Sweet as the BC Distaff Champ. Don’t let facts get in the way of your fallible argument. As for Rachel having never met females of the same quality as Zen….that’s laughable. Last year Zen faced 1 female that won a graded stakes last year let alone a G1. Rachel on the other hand beat 7 females that won graded stakes last year. As for the AB, Rachel may not have shown…but are you going to give equal time to Zen scratching out of the Louisville Distaff because the track was sealed? Yeah, god forbid Zen runs when it’s not to her liking, but you turn around and hold Rachel accountable for scratching out of the AB? That’s hypocritical, but again let’s not hold the same requirements for both horses as your bestest of the best argument will surely fall short. You can laugh all you want about Macho Again and Musket Man, but at least they finished their races against Rachel and are still running. How many males faced Zenyatta are still racing and hitting the board? Oh wait… that will hurt your argument for Zenyatta as the bestest of the best. And no I have no bile or vitriol as an East Coaster…I’m within a half hour drive of Santa Anita and within an hour drive of Hollywood Park and haven’t bothered to go and see the most overrated horse of the decade.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
Well DougSalvatore…
It kinda goes like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_Handicap
Read until your heart is content.
Tough Tiz’s Sis: 1:40.16
Any other questions you have for me, guys?
June 19th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Jim C - tell me how badly wrong I am with post #76.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Quote from Nancy:
“Jim C - you’re confusing facts. Zenyatta never beat Life Is Sweet as the BC Distaff Champ.”
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a clue Nancy Grace!
PS: Can we get more granular than that?
June 19th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Travis L.,
I wasn’t frustrated. I was just playing along with your Step Brothers reference. Glad you picked up on it.
I don’t actually drink beer, as I’m in training for the Boston Marathon.
I will drink Kool-Aid, though. It’s got electrolytes.
Sorry for posting facts about the 2008 Ruffian.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
As I sat next to an assistant trainer before the Vanity, we discussed the weight this mare was carrying. I was very worried for her at this stage of the game and knew Mitchell’s background. He explained to me that, yes indeed, it was a LOT of weight for a horse to carry. He explained that people do not realize what it takes for a horse to carry it and one false move and it throws the horse off, but not to worry, Zenyatta would win.
Still I did not take him for his word, on her winning this race. As I screamed she is going to lose, as she was sooo wide, and so far back, he still asured me she would win. How she won, I to this day do not know. As I was driving home, I thought to myself, how I missed the former greats, as they are called by sports writers or fans, but I have at least been fortunate to witness this mare and her accomplishments. Her pre-game dance and the way she responds to people is uncanny. She always wants to make sure people see her. I saw her in person at the BCC last Nov. and was blown away. This is from a girl who as an 8 year old had her picture taken with Eddie Arcaro, worked around thoroughbreds, and has witnessed many fabulous racehorses over the years here at Saratoga. I went to every Triple Crown race, starting with Silver Charm and ending with Big Brown, where the outcome could have been a triple crown winner, and went home disappointed. But, this mare has never disappointed me in the 14 out of 17 races I have witnessed her run. It doesn’t matter what surface they run on, ask yourself, how many have won 17 in a row? Even on synthetics, how many have won 17 in a row? Dirt? Grass? I’m blessed to have witnessed it in my lifetime. Just as this article was basically written about a gentleman’s journey with life threatening cancer and what he witnessed that day. How wonderful it was to have a day where he viewed some outstanding art work and another form of art in Zenyatta. It made that particular day for him complete. Why can’t it make our day complete to know we too were able to witness in our lifetime a wonderful mare win 17 in a row? How she (Zenyatta) fought every step of the way to win, just as this gentleman and many others, who are trying to do, on a daily basis, who have some battle to overcome. I just do not understand the negativeness of some, which is always wasted energy in my eyes.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
Nancy,
My facts are correct: Zenyatta, in her career so far, has defeated 2 BC Distaff Champions, Life is Sweet and GInger Punch.
True, Life is Sweet later won the BC Distaff after she raced Zenyatta, but you are being hypertechnical. It was also fair for me to point out that Zenyatta, in BC Classic, defeated the 2009 American Champion 3 year old horse, and the 2009 American Champion older male horse, even though those awards were bestowed following the race.
Also, it’s convenient how you fail to address that Rachel’s connections ducked the Apple Blossom when $5 million was on the table. Actions speak louder than words.
And by the way, I never once claimed that Zenyatta was the best horse ever, or even the best female horse ever (although Steve Davidowitz, an authority on the subject, has opined this week that Zenyatta is the greatest race mare he has seen in his lifetime). You are entitled to your own opinion, but there is no need for all your bile. Life is sweet.
JC
June 19th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Quote from DougSalvatore:
“Riboletta ran 1:40.35 (under 125lbs) when she won the Ruffian … how does Tough Tiz’s Sis hold the Stakes record again?”
DougSalvatore,
Answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_Handicap
Tough Tiz’s Sis: 1:40.16
Any more questions?
June 19th, 2010 at 10:50 pm
For all you Tough Tiz knockers : she was a Grade 1 winner on dirt (slop) and synthetic . She only beat a mare by the name of Hysterical Lady ( Jerry Hollendorfer ) multiple G1 winner inthe Lady’s Secret. And if any of you watched the 2008 Vanity vs Zenyata and dont think Aaron Gryder was schooled by Mike Smith cmon, One more jump and Tiz goes by Zenyata at the wire. Also slop, dirt synthetic , how many mares have you seen run a 113 byar speed figure and a minus 2 3/4 ragozin #.
June 19th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
DougSalvatore,
Re your post #76. I never said Zenyatta was better than Inside Information. I never said Zenyatta was the best female horse ever. I have not made up my mind, and it’s too early to judge in any event. I was just defending her against all the bashing (creeps like Steve Byk), and the ridiculous arguments that she is nothing unless she runs in New York. To repeat., Ruffian was my favorite horse, male or female of all-time, until Zenyatta came along. But Ruffian never ran outside of New York, except for the Sorority at Monmouth, but I consider that New York for horse racing purposes. (Del Mar is closer to Hollywood Park than Monmouth is the Belmont).
I don’t dispute that you are more knowledgeable than the average Zenyatta-knocker, who tends to be a parochial New Yorker. I will consider your arguments, and re-post. What do you think about Steve Davidowitz’s comments this week? He’s acknowledged to be one the best historians of the Sport.
JC
June 19th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
DougSalvatore,
Ginger Punch wins the 2007 Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic, the loses to Zenyatta in the Apple Blossom, then goes on to win the Louisville Stakes, the Grade 1 Odgen Phipps, the Grade 1 Go For Wand, the Grade 1 Personal Ensign, then tries Zenaytta again in the 2008 Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic and finishes off the board.
Or how about Cocoa Beach that wins the Grade 1 Beldame, then loses to Zenyatta in the Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic, then comes back and wins the Grade 1 Matriarch, then loses again to Zenyatta in the Lady’s Secret.
Then you have Music Note that wins the Grade 1 Mother Goose, Grade 1 Coaching Club American Oaks, the Grade 1 Gazelle, then loses to Zenyatta, but comes back and wins the Grade 1 Beldame and the Grade 1 Ballerina.
Of course, you have Life Is Sweet that wins three straight races including the Grade 1 Santa Margarita, then loses to Zenyatta in the Milady as well as two more races to Zenyatta, then comes back to win the Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic.
Then you have Santa Teresita that loses three races to Zenyatta, then comes back to win the Grade 1 Santa Maria.
And then you have Tough Tiz’ Sis that also loses three races to Zenyatta and comes back to win the Grade 1 Ruffian.
The horses that Zenyatta destroyed LEADING up to the Breeders Cup Classic included the winners of 22 Grade 1 races and 37 stakes races overall.
Oh, I forgot, she also beat Canada’s 2007 Horse of the Year Sealy Hill.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:03 am
Quote from DougSalvatore:
“Riboletta ran 1:40.35 (under 125lbs) when she won the Ruffian … how does Tough Tiz’s Sis hold the Stakes record again?”
DougSalvatore,
Answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_Handicap
Tough Tiz’s Sis: 1:40.16
Any more questions?
June 20th, 2010 at 12:04 am
Rolly,
My argument doesn’t concern Zenyatta specifically, but all runners. Let’s leave her out of it for the moment.
We can’t judge the graded stakes system solely on why it was created because it’s developed into something much more than that, as you well know. Even more so than comparing the records of bloodstock, it’s turned into a marketing tool for racetracks that never agreed to have their product classified by an independent group in the first place and have no control on how their races are classified. It has essentially removed the critical thinking element from those who buy and sell Thoroughbreds as well as from those who report on and follow different aspects of the industry (e.g. the press, of which you are a member). As Jay Hovdey wisely put it, “…most fans parrot the terminology, citing grades of races in conversations regarding the relative merits of horses, as if these numbers were handed down from MIT, thoroughly scrutinized.” It’s this complicity in making these labels “the coin of the realm” which is the problem.
I respect your intelligence enough to believe you can tell the difference between a Sea the Stars and Twice Over, or a Secretariat and Mine That Bird. But what I get out of some of the comments posted here is that such a critical analysis is either unacceptable, meaningless, or irrelevant in the long term just as long as the Graded Stakes Committee is there to hold our hand and tell us — in shortcut fashion — the things we want to know. I’m sorry, but that’s not good enough with a system that you agreed is flawed. A G1, G2 or G3 in black type doesn’t tell us the whole story of a racehorse, not now or 50 years from now.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:05 am
I’m sorry, Zenyatta’s (true, objective, unknowable) location on the hierarchy of merit in the history of horse racing, her deserved and accurate location on the list of top 100 racehorses of all time, whether she could have beaten horses that are long dead or are retired, all such things–
NONE of that has any impact whatsoever on the admiration, awe, delight and joy I feel watching Zenyatta–her elegant neck, her amazonian size, her monstrous stride, her blazing finishing kick, her will to win, her knowledge of the wire, the pricking of her ears when she hits the front, her recognition of cameras, and her dance–oh, that lovely, powerful, thrilling dance.
I have determined that she is one Platonic Form of Racehorse, and nothing is going to get in the way of my enjoyment of this incredible freak of a mare.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:10 am
Quote from DougSalvatore:
“Riboletta ran 1:40.35 (under 125lbs) when she won the Ruffian … how does Tough Tiz’s Sis hold the Stakes record again?”
DougSalvatore,
Tough Tiz’s Sis: 1:40.16
Any more questions?
June 20th, 2010 at 12:18 am
Travis L,
…and guess who beat Tough Tiz’s Sis?
You guessed it: Z-E-N-N-Y-A-T-T-A
Zenyatta defeats Tough Tiz’s Sis in the Grade I Vanity, then Baffert ships Tough Tiz’s Sis to Belmont to race her in the Grade I Ruffian.
Result:
Tough Tiz’s Sis draws off by 19 lengths and absolutely dismantles the field in the Grade I Ruffian and sets the stakes record, while stopping the teletimer in 1:40.16
Note:
Baffert was tired of having his brains bashed in by Zenyatta, so he shipped east to race those Grade I tomato cans at Belmont Park.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:20 am
Jim C. says “. I was just defending her against all the bashing (creeps like Steve Byk),”
Jim - Byk is not a creep. He’s actually a pretty nice person - and no matter what you think of his opinions … I think you have to show at least a little respect for a guy who pumps out 15 hours of radio a week on the sport and tries to promote some interest in the sport with his website.
He does not have a bias against West Coast racing either - for God sakes I think he picked Chocolate Candy to win the ‘09 Derby and Evening Jewel to win this years KY Oaks - and Paddy O Prado over Sidney’s Candy was his Derby exacta if I remember right. Do those sound like the selections of a man with an extreme pro New York bias?
Jim C. says - “What do you think about Steve Davidowitz’s comments this week? He’s acknowledged to be one the best historians of the Sport.”
I strongly disagree with them. Steve Davidowitz’s wrote a book that is probably the one book I’d most suggest reading if anyone came to me and asked for a handicapping book selection. I think highly of a lot of work he has done over the years.
I believe he had a recent gaffe in a book where he misquoted Laz Barrera on an event that didn’t happen … I think maybe his memory isn’t as good as maybe he thinks it might be.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:22 am
Jeremy Jet,
In the 2009 BCC Mile, in which Goldikova won, the second and third place horses were Courageous Cat and Justinuffhumor, respectively.
Respectively, can you tell me what accomplishments these two ‘world class’ runners have?
June 20th, 2010 at 12:23 am
Tough Tiz’s Sis won the Ruffian in 1:40.46
Congrats though Travis … you’ve already had a couple posters quote your time that you made up
June 20th, 2010 at 12:42 am
When a history of horse racing is compiled in the year 2100, it will show that in the year 2010 a six-year-old, seventeen-and-a-half-hand mare named Zenyatta became the first horse of either gender to reach seventeen races undefeated in major competition since Kincsem in 1878. It is quite possible that that history could show that Zenyatta reached 18 (equaling the immortal Eclipse), 19, or 20 races undefeated, possibly including ten straight Grade 1’s for a total of 14 Grade 1s, with a Breeder’s Cup Ladies Classic and two Breeder’s Cup Classic wins. Will this history record the vitriol spewed about quality of competition, Beyer numbers, all-weather vs. dirt vs. turf surfaces, East Coast vs. California, Zenyatta vs. (insert whomever, Rachel Alexandra, Quality Road, horses of prior eras, name your favorite) or will it focus on the fact that Zenyatta achieved the above distinctions while being a deep closer who routinely spotted the field ten or more lengths, carrying weight assignments up to 129 lbs and up to 19 pounds above her rivals when such weights were uncommon, beginning her races by dancing in the post parade, obviously knowing where the wire was in the stretch, and winning with her ears pricked, hardly winded and barely sweating? I would like to think that by 2100 the latter scenario will win the day. I just hope that the final line is not “and yet somehow she was never voted America’s Horse of the Year”.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:49 am
Winning 17 races In a row at any level is extremely difficult, doing it in G1 or G2’s is all the more impressive. However I remember Mr. Moss saying they weren’t going to follow the same path as before and the whole point in bringing her back was to prove she could do anything, yet the path is exactly the same as the past few years. If they are going to keep her in California then at least run against males in the Gold Cup and if they want to run against females then ship out of state. No sane person can deny her greatness but at the same time we want to see her be challenged. Beating the same 5 or 6 overmatched rivals got old a long time ago. Put an end to the discussion and plot an ambitious campaign culminating in the BC Classic. Winning the Vanity added nothing to her resume, neither will winning the Clement Hirsch and Lady’s Secret. Show us how good she is, crush Rail Trip in the Gold Cup then ship east and face Quality Road and Blame in the Whitney then face Rachel Alexandra and finally finish the year under the Twin Spires. Retire 21 for 21 and end all doubt how great she is, I know that seems a bit ambitious but it will end all discussions of how good she is and leave no doubt she is the greatest mare of all time.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:54 am
It’s OK Laura …. take comfort in knowing that if they started an award called ‘Horse of the 2.5 Years’ …. Zenyatta would win that vote in a landslide.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:56 am
#79, Doug,
You’re cherry picking the sequence of Tough Tiz’s Sis to put them in order to make your case.
Tough Tiz’s Sis lost three straight races to Zenyatta, got tire of that, went back to inferior competion and won the Ruffian.
#85, Nancy,
You are wrong. Prior to losing to Zenyatta in the Milady, Life Is Sweet had won three straight stakes in 2009, the Grade 2 El Encino, the Grade 2 La Canada, and the Grade 1 Santa Margarita.
Also, in the Milady you had Champagne Eyes that won the Santa Lucia.
In the Clement L. Hirsch, Zenyatta beat Life Is Sweet again, as well as Champagne Eyes again, and Dawn After Dawn that had won the Moscow Burning.
Then in the Lady’s Secret she beat Lethal Heat that won the Fleet Treat, Real Good Deal, Briecat that won the Adoration Handicap, and Life Is Sweet again.
If you want to get technical, I count 15 stakes winning horses in 2009 that Zenyatta beat.
June 20th, 2010 at 1:08 am
Aparagon4u - If they run Zenyatta against Rail Trip out West - ship East to face Rachel Alexandra - and take on Quality Road in the BC Classic …. she will have faced by far the three best horses of her career.
But hey … who wants to see that? … it would put her beloved perfect record in grave danger. I’d rather she feast on cupcakes. My guess is that she stays in California until the Breeders Cup - probably against females unless something goes wrong with Rail Trip .. and she will run in the BC Distaff not the Classic.
There is no way they run her in the Classic if she’s undefeated going into the BC. I also think Rachel Alexandra will run in the Distaff as well.
If Quality Road stays of sound mind and sound feet… neither trainer will test him.
June 20th, 2010 at 1:10 am
DougSalvatore,
Take the time to investigate who has the record for the Grade I Ruffian Handicap.
Google these 3 words: “ruffian handicap wiki” and you will find the Ruffian Handicap on Wikipedia.
It will tell you everything you need to know about “Tough Tiz’s Sis” (the Ruffian Handicap stakes record holder).
June 20th, 2010 at 1:24 am
Travis L.
Do yourself a favor and don’t rely on wikipedia as a source of facts.
Tough Tiz’s Sis was clocked in 1:40.46 for the Ruffian. Watch the replay, view the chart, and look up the stakes record at NYRA.com, not GOOGLE.com.
Thanks.
June 20th, 2010 at 1:30 am
Joe Bag O’ Donuts,
Read through your “American Racing Manual”.The track teletimer was not correct (due to the weather that day) and the time was re-adjusted to 1:40.16.
June 20th, 2010 at 1:50 am
Well - someone should notify DRF if what you say is true … because they still to this day show 1:40 2/5ths for the final time in past performance lines. How can DRF change the time in the ARM and not change it in the subsquent pp’s of the horses coming out of the race?
June 20th, 2010 at 1:50 am
Travis L.,
Pretty convenient that neither NYRA, DRF, or Equibase recognizes this.
Who’s the publisher of The American Racing Manual?
Jerry Moss?
June 20th, 2010 at 2:33 am
DougSalvatore, you said: “My guess is that she stays in California until the Breeders Cup - probably against females unless something goes wrong with Rail Trip .. and she will run in the BC Distaff not the Classic.”
I agree and disagree. Roger Stein, a SoCal horseplayer with a weekly radio show, and who frequently interviews John Shirreffs, says that John Shirreffs will be reluctant to run her in the Clement Hirsch Handicap at Del Mar. Zenyatta does not like that surface, she would be carrying top weight, and she would be facing St. Trinians again (I don’t care what you say - St. Trinians is a fine mare, one of the best in training right now).
I tend to gravitate toward Roger’s thinking. On the other hand, since the BC Classic is probably the goal, it may be best to keep her out here in SoCal. First of all, it will mean less shipping. Second, I like the idea of her running on synthetic in advance of the Breeders’ Cup. It’s more exhausting to run on compared to dirt, and will keep her at a top level of fitness. Third, while I think Zenyatta would love the dirt and long final stretch at Belmont, there is no way on earth she is going into an NYRA detention barn.
I do agree with you, Doug, that the BC Distaff could be a possibility. That would be a very appealing race, with Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, St. Trinians, and maybe even Blind Luck and Switch. I am not so sure Zenyatta’s connections brought her back merely to run again in the BC Classic. She has already done that. She has nothing left to prove in that department. Taking on the insufferable Jess Jackson (and the crooked “supertrainer,” Asmussen) has probably been the goal all along.
June 20th, 2010 at 3:28 am
DougSalvatore: Getting back to you on post #76. Obviously, Inside Information was a terrific horse, and her record is awesome. If you think you she is better than Zenyatta, you are entitled to your opinion. Rational people can agree to disagree.
I would point out that Inside Information won 6 Grade 1’s (compared to 11 for Zenyatta). Inside Information also never won a Breeders’ Cup Classic against males. To me, these are decisive factors that run in Zenyatta’s favor. And for what it’s worth, Inside Information never ran in California (but I consider this factor no more relevant than Zenyatta not having run in New York — who cares?). That said, if you liked Inside Information more, or had some special attachment to her, I am not going to argue with you.
My only truck is with the Steve Byks of the world who claim Zenyatta has no business in the conversation. Lenny Shulman of BloodHorse was on the Roger Stein radio show this morning. Roger asked Lenny where all the anti-Zenyatta bile such as Byk’s stems from. Lenny (who is based in Kentucky) responded that it’s Easterners who just cannot fathom that a horse from the West Coast can be this good. It all reminds me of the way they used to knock Seabiscuit, or how they could not get over the fact that Sunday Silence dispatched Easy Goer 3 out of 4 times.
June 20th, 2010 at 6:00 am
I can guarantee this much. No one, whether its Steve Byk or Joe Schmo, who says Zenyatta isnt truly at a Ruffian level has ever spent any time in her presence.Thats all it takes to be convinced. When I first saw her, we went to Oaklawn Park to see Ginger Punch after her Breeders Cup win. When they led the horses over, they both walked right in front of me. You could see immediately that Ginger Punch wanted no part of Zenyatta, I believe if you watch her races, you will often see other horses in her race as she moves along side lose focus on the race and start looking at and lugging away from her. There’s a reason - she’s the boss mare, and they know it.
June 20th, 2010 at 6:12 am
So, Jeremy, your a ’stats guy’, maybe you can help me out. I just watch the horses, and to those of us who actually watch horses stride. This mare has a stride most of us have never seen, even after 40 years of watching. So, stats wise, friend, when she goes that last quarter last week in 22 3/5 carrying 129 lbs. to win a grade 1 at 1 1/8, can you get into your Stat-O-Matic mode and tell me the last time that happened in the US? I’m bettin’ there is a turf race where they ran in a pack in 52 for a half mile where you can find it happening, but nothing like that race last week.
June 20th, 2010 at 7:38 am
You are all like children. Who cares who thinks Z is better than R or R better than Z. Why not just enjoy the thrill of watching both of them race as you may never see their likes again in your lifetime. If they do face off fine and may the best horse win. If they don’t that is fine too, don’t take it out on the horse for where the owner are placing them. I have the same respect for both and wish them both all the success in the world. Neither horse has to be bashed by anyone.
June 20th, 2010 at 8:20 am
Lobieb,
Thank you to you and the others who understood the point of the article. Yours will be the final word. — Ray